The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Nightfall]

*likes to point out that Krusty ISN'T pendentic just a perfectionist. * Not that it's a bad thing Krusty.

 

[barsoomcore]

If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).

Heh. Exactly. You're onto something very important -- why all this stuff doesn't actually make any sense.

Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.

Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust. In order for there to be intrigue, there has to be honesty. In order for there to be manipulation, there has to be loyalty. None of those qualities exist in the Abyss, so there are no politics. There can't be -- demons aren't capable of trusting each other, so deception, manipulation etc are out. Therefore, only personal power can be the judge, and as you pointed out, immortal beings ought to have had all their Big Fights long ago. There ought to be only one Demon Lord. Only one demon, really.

You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back.

Would YOU trust a demon to watch your back? Nobody would -- not even another demon. We're getting dangerously close to the notion that Evil is an unworkable concept, here. Demons can't trust each other, ever, so they can't manipulate each other, so it all comes down to one demon's ability to force another demon to do it's bidding which comes down to physical power. And so, the whole issue ought to have been settled millenia ago. There's one Demon Lord who has a host of constructs and other minions without independent thought who won't ever get uppity ideas. He's destroyed everyone who might ever be a potential rival or threat to his power.

Like the private says in Aliens: "It's the only way to be sure."

 

[Psion]

Greets, enkrusted one,

Nope. Doesn't wash.

Just cause you say so, eh?

Sorry, THAT doesn't wash.

If Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's 'turf' and Graz'zt flees that represents a loss of face.

Then when Demogorgon dies from the trap Grazzt set, that's a bigger loss of face. And Graz'zt earns even more face, because he has shown that even when you think he's down, he's not necessarily. That makes for a much more indelible fear (and much likely to lead one to a durable position as a demon lord) than to merely rely on physical power, as the mere physical will have your lackey turning on you the moment that they think you are vulnerable. Fear of trickery leaves your lackeys fearful even when they THINK you are vulnerable.

There is more than one way to win a fight. Going toe-to-toe is not always the way it gets done. If a demon lord sets up treachery upon treachery and contingency upon contingency, pretty soon his underlings learn that crossing him is not wise and are kept in line. Those same treacheries and contingencies can be used to even the playing field, too.

It does not always come down to a toe-to-toe fight, and I imagine that most demon lords that held that philosophy would be ex-demon lords before long.

It comes down to conflating chaos with stupidity again. Yes, chaos respects fear instead of laws and social conventions. But there is more than one way to earn fear.

S'mon wrote:
Um, UK's argument is based on the nature of Chaos & Evil

It's more specific than that. It is based on his own personal interperetation of abyssal politics which tries to universalize a singular example of CE behavior to encompass the entierety of abyssal politics.

 

[drnuncheon]

Actually whats more likely is that Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's territory backed by a million strong army of demons. Graz'zts equally strong forces engage them but Demogorgon is able to roll through Graz'zts strongest units and champions like a hot knife through butter. Graz'zt can't engage Demogorgon personally since he'll just get crushed so the two-headed one is left to wreak havoc throughout Graz'zts strongest troops.

But you know what? Demogorgon's not going to do that. Because he's not stupid.

As soon as he assembles his millions of demons and marches on Graz'zt, Orcus is going to assemble his millions of demons and put a hurting on the ol'double-header while he isn't there to do anything about it.

Demogorgon might walk though Graz'zt's champions and such, but that doesn't mean he'll come through unharmed - and he definitely won't come through the fight with Graz'zt unharmed. And when he limps his sorry tentacled behind back home afte rwinning the fight, guess who's waiting? It's his good buddy Orcus, who is fresh and rested and unharmed, armed with a full complement of spells and ready to make Demogorgon suck the pain pipe.

So, Graz'zt doesn't have to be tough enough to beat anyone that comes his way - he just has to be tough enough to make it a bad idea to attack him. Neither he nor Orcus nor Demogorgon is going to make a definitive move against the other two unless he believes he can beat both of them...and whatever other challenger is going to rise up afterwards.

J

 

[Celebrim]

Barsoomcore: I agree, with the exception that it is not the idea of a demon that is unworkable. The idea that is unworkable is a demon ruler. The whole notion that there are demon suzeraines with armies and leutinants and such is ridiculous. None of the attributes involved with leadership or politics are possible in the Abyss. Everything comes down to intimidation and mistrust. As it is said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand', and what is the Abyss but a house divided by definition?

And there is a certain sense in which the idea of rulership is one that is foriegn to the Abyss by definition. The notion is convienent in a story sense but ultimately as much of a betrayal of the concept as a 'Borg Queen'.

It is entirely possible for thier to be a CE ruler and yet have that ruler be an epitome of CEness. But, it is not possible to have a CE ruler with a large number of CE subjects and have both be embodiments of pure CE. No matter how intimidating X demon prince may be, all his intimidation can accomplish is greater mistrust, greater resentment, and greater disunity. To accomplish something else is to make the claim that an embodiment of perfect CE caused weal, benifice, cohesion, and law as a result of his actions - which is a clear contridiction. A ruler of demons could only 'rule' on two condiations: 1) that he did not impose his own will, but if that were the case he would not be truly CE, or 2) that he was personally present and capable of forcing the self-interested subject to act in his self interest. But ultimately, two fails because any subject so oppressed would quickly rebel and leave the first demons sphere of influence or join some being who felt a similar personal grudge.

Cowardice provides only temporary relief from the problem. If the demons do not band together against thier oppressor because they are not willing to risk sacrificing themselves even on thier own behalf, then they are also far too cowardly to risk sacrificing themselves on someone elses behalf.

 

[coyote6]

Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust. In order for there to be intrigue, there has to be honesty. In order for there to be manipulation, there has to be loyalty.

I have to disagree with that, at least in terms of the real world.

You can deceive someone who doesn't trust you, lie to and plot against people who are lying and plotting against you. And people who are loyal to pretty much only themselves (I'm talking about people who don't really have a grasp of what "loyalty" means) can be manipulators and manipulatees (both at the same time). That's common. Sometimes, deceitful and dishonest people are the easiest to manipulate (aka "fool"); they can be easy to lie to (despite the fact that they seem to assume that "everyone lies"), but even if they assume everything you say is a lie, you can use that to manipulate them anyways. Ever known a crack or heroin addict? They will lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate; but they also get lied to, cheated, stolen from, and manipulated -- all the time.

Heck, I suppose I could introduce you to some sample persons that have exhibited these behaviors, if you wanted to meet 'em; but I'd rather skip that hypothetical future family reunion.

Now, you can say that demons aren't like humans, that no demon ever trusts anyone or anything, due to their perfectly and completely chaotic and evil natures, and thus no intrigue is possible, then continue with your argument.

However, that doesn't fit the facts we have about demons (e.g., there are demon lords and demon armies and so forth). Perhaps that implies that demons are not actually perfectly chaotic and perfectly evil?

(Also, saying that a chaotic & evil nature makes one essentially un-foolable implies that being chaotic and evil makes one immune to stupidity, which seems quite counter-intuitive to me.)

 

[Psion]

Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust.

Not there doesn't. All that is necessary is for you to get an someone to act on something that is not true. Self confidence and arrogance are factors in that, and there is plenty of that to go around in the abyss.

 

[drnuncheon]

Actually detailed under my system those characters would have a different Challenge Rating!

That's great, but we are talking about WOTC's system right now. (I think to avoid confusion, you should call yours the Krust Rating, or KR!)

Since you don't have Grazzt's stats (or Orcus' or Demogorgon's), we don't know the KR for any of them - only the CR. And as I have shown, the CR is not a valid method of comparing two monsters.

I don't think I have encountered a monster with localised spell resistance?

It was a hypothetical monster created solely for the purpose of illustrating the example. There's precedent in the rules for localized effects of various sorts - spells that give bonuses vs. evil spells, etc.

As far as I can tell:

Dire Lion CR6 (just barely)
Weretiger CR7
Dire Tiger CR8

And yet, the weretiger is still likely to defeat the Dire Tiger, even tho it's KR is lower! You are only giving more evidence for my point - Challenge Rating - or Krust Rating - is insufficient for a "who'd win".

If it were sufficient, then it would be the only stat needed in the game...

J

 

[herald]

Upper Krust said

I'm sorry; I must be in the wrong place I thought this was a message board.

I'm sure I didn't miss anthing on the FAQ that you should be pendantic on the board.

Incorrect. They can STATE many points; whether those points are JUSTIFIED is a different matter altogether.

Oh no, I'm sure pretty sure that they can actually justify them, weather you like it or not is up to you. Any way you slice it though, it's justified.

Yet amazingly in the 3rd Ed. Manual of the Planes we pretty much return the cosmological status quo.

Ah, but that's where you arguement starts to fail. You see FR follows a completly differant cosmology. The planes follow a "Great Tree" instead of a "Great Wheel" concept. The only way these cosmologies intersect is at the "Shadow Plane" (Provided that you use this optional rule)

All planes that share the same name are infact seperate and differant.

At this point the realms have no direct connection to the typical planescape campaign setting as originally presented.

Well actually I used logic and real world precedents to determine the socio-politics of the Abyss reinforced by examples from 1st Ed.

You use real world presedents? Are you telling me that you've visited the real Abyss? (Nevermind, I don't want to know)

The fact is that politics can work in the abyss and it does. Grazzat for could play both ends against the middle, which would make more sense than anything. He could hamstring his opponents into thinking that other threats exist that prevent his removal.

Whatever you choose as an explination is fine. Insisting that stats balance what roleplaying should be able to explain is rather pointless.

 

[The Serge]

If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over.

I don't think anyone cut out social and/or political elements. However, it's the phyiscal/magical/psionic power that dominates the "politics" of The Abyss to a far greater degree than in the Nine Hells or Gehenna.

As for the Demon Princes being equally ranked, I think that's part of the concern. If the likes of Graz'zt, historically ranked with Orcus and Demogorgon (and stronger than Lolth, I might add), is now suddenly significantly lower in strength (as his CR suggests), then there's a problem. And remember, even among gangs and thugs, there are "rules" (which, admittedly are broken when convenient) that govern why there isn't one leader. Quite frankly, in a Chaotic system there can't be one leader. Chaos is about change, conflict, contrast, and so on (wasn't trying to alliterate, but I think that was poetic). Among the cess-pool of CE, a few individuals have risen that command the respect of trillions of Demons... but there's not one guiding force because the nature of Chaos doesn't allow this.

Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).

The latter is what concerns some people, including myself. They aren't roughly equal in power according to the CR. Now, I disagree with my august colleague (assuming I comprehend what he's said), U_K, in thinking that CR is the sole measurement between beings. It is a measure of threat against a party of mortals. For example, most people with whom I've interacted agree that Pit Fiends (CR 16) would probably beat a Marilith (CR 17) and a Balor (CR 18)... but the Pit Fiend is not as directly threatening to a party as the two Demons (Marilith has more attack options, about as many spells, almost as many HD as the PF, while the Balor has an instant kill weapon, and can do damage to those attacking it if they get too close... as well as a few more spells).

But, I do think that Demon Princes should pose the same level of threat to parties, albeit due to slightly different reasons. Graz'zt may not be a physical powerhouse, but perhaps his weapons or spell selections could make as or almost as threatening as Demogorgon.

However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that).

Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt, IIRC, were near the same power level, with Demogorgon clearly out ahead, followed by Graz'zt and Orcus (I think for them, it was about Magic Items and HPs). So, no one is saying they need to be precisely equal, but they should be closer in power. By being closer in power, and then applying a limited degree of social mores and norms (an oxymoron to be sure in The Abyss), then one can flesh out how Orcus and Graz'zt manage to maintain their hegemony among the Demon Princes.

Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.

Again, I don't think anyone said that physical prowess was the sole element... but it is the dominant one. Using the street gang analogy I suggested earlier, there are many rival gangs out there that, for a variety of reason, do make treaties and deals about turf, appearance, and so-on. The leader is the strongest and most charismatic... although not necessarily the smartest or most diplomatic. His authority is derived through his physical capabilities and his force of personality that backs up the physical rather than takes precedence to it (as in the Nine Hells). He doesn't have to get involved in intrigue or deception; disobey and get pummelled or killed. He doesn't have to manipulate any more than promising punishment for disobedience. So long as he maintains the threat of pain and his ability to personally back it up, he leads the gang.

And that's not really measurable by CR, AFAIK.

One could say that it is based upon the number of and relative powers a being can summon or call. Afterall, this is included in the stats for Demons and Devils in the Monster Manual[/i].

BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power). From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear). Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by. So being muy macho isn't sufficient by itself. You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back. Just being able to beat up anybody in your gang is not enough.

In Costner's [/i]Wyatt Earp[/i], the title character, by himself and with a shotgun only, disperses an angry lynch mob. They knew his reputation. They knew how physically dangerous he was. He had a high reputation. Although I think Earp in this movie was LN with Good tendancies, the encounter required that he deviate from his alignment by reacting in an unlawful way.

The Demon Princes are no different except they do this all the time. There is fear and respect because they promise a beat down and destruction if disobeyed. They are intelligent and enough of their ploys have worked, further intensifying the fleeting loyalty of their subordinants. And, they can wither a ticked Balor with a stern gaze. I don't see how this isn't consistent with street gangs.

Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs. So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days.

A Demon can turn coat on its boss. A Demon can provide information to a rival. A Demon can forget to follow a command. A Demon can engage in most of the things associated with a street gang. And, like the police, enemies to Demons (including Devils, Celestials, etc) deal with them when they can but aren't dumb enough to venture into their territory unless absolutely necessary.

The analogy works.