The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[The Serge]

It's just about power, any kind of power, and lots of it. Personal, physical, magical, psionic, political, tactical, diplomatic, economic, geographically strategic, insight into long term strategy, precogniscence, intimidation capability, guile, wile, experience, etc. You use every tool at your disposal to achieve your own personal goals. You don't care what you use, how it gets used, or if the ends justify the means. You do every possible thing you can to attain maximum personal power and selfish gain. If you can use someone else to your benefit, great. If serving someone else is the optimal way to attain your goals, great. If manipulating other people's self interest in order to get them to do the things you want them to do is the best strategy, great. If walking in yourself and giving a display of great personal power is the best thing to do, great. Anything and everything as long as it is effective.

Truth, lies, betrayal, trust -- these are all tools to be used. Both parties try to determine which tool is being used at the moment. At times, both parties benefit.

What you describe sounds more like Neutral Evil than Chaotic Evil to me. Neutral Evil is about doing whatever it takes to get what you want. If it means following rules, fine. If it means breaking the law, fine. If it means being loyal and honest for the time being, fine. If it means betraying a trusted and loyal ally, fine.

CE is about immediate personal power. It doesn't wait. While it may think, it doesn't think long, nor does it plan long. It's about going in, destoying everything in sight, bullying, and maintaining a turf through sheer power. It's about never trusting anyone and eliminating those weak enough to trust you. There are no laws or consistency of rules beyond what the current leader says, and if a lacky can get away with disregarding the leader's rules when they become an impediment, that's what will happen. Lower ranking Demons live in a mixture of fear and hate under the heels of greater Demons; they obey out of fear, and because the current leader has proven his/her/its strength (which provides sustenance and some modicum of protection within the gang) in maintaining its position of authority. If something better comes along and the Demon can get to it with no worries, it's gone immediately. There are never allies, never friends, only future enemies. There are never rules, just immediate gratification. If there's a goal, it lasts as long as it doesn't seem something else to wet its appetite. Anything of value has no meaning and must be torn down... even if the goal is in sight.

LE is about consolidation, tyranny, control, slavery, and the utter oppression of the spirit and the body. While NE is about the selfish desire at the expense of others or hopelessness, and while CE is about entropy, destruction, and mindless rage, LE is goal-oriented control that takes everything of value and uses it in pursuit of said goal. Everything appears to make utter, twisted sense. It is designed to reward the strongest and sublimate and stomp out the weakest. It's about justification and proof of anything to promote the cause. It's about goose-stepping, genocidal maniacs who use laws to justify the existance of an empire, riech, or what-have-you for a given group, putting it above all others; then, within the group, there are further stratifications, all designed to maintain the status quo. The leaders are entrenched, distrustful, and ready to destroy any opposition within the letter of the law. They are worshipped and obeyed out of blind loyalty and fear by most underlings.

While I respect what you're offering, you appear to be clumping all Evil alignments into one group, and that doesn't work.

 

[S'mon]

West Belfast, The Abyss... close enough I'd say.

Although Krusty's MP does look (& behave) a lot more like Asmodeus than Demogorgon.

 

[Psion]

But you have to believe me when I tell you something. Even if I point behind you and say, "Look out!" you're only going to turn around and check if you think I'm at least trustworthy enough to not be de facto trying to fool you.

That's not very trustworthy, I'll admit, but the basic point is that deception is only possible if one party trusts the other.

Again, this is incorrect. Deception is possible without trust (in others.) I think you are limiting your model situation too much here. You might automatically assume anything I tell you is a lie. That does not mean you cannot be decieved. For example, an enemy may feign weakness. Say you are a head of a gang of abyssal demons, and you see that a power schism has caused a rival gang to be split in two because of infighting; you think this is a chance to strike. But is the whole thing a ruse? Did the enemy (who you never trusted) deliberately sacrifice a few lackeys to goad you into a hasty action? Or are you missing an opportunity for fearing too much?

Since, if you have any brain at all, you KNOW that a demon is bound to betray you as soon as it suits him, why would you trust a thing he says?

First off, if you don't have spies and lackeys that will do things you tell them, you will never get ahead in the first place, so if you are paralyzed by fear that a lackey will betray you, you might as well quit you aspirations as a demon lord right there.

The typical way that demons stop lackeys from betraying them, I would imagine, is through fear and by making contingencies for the eventuality that one does betray you.

Now the deception comes when you convince someone that you are cowed and you are not, or are vulnerable, and you are not, both of which are percfectly possible if you are not trusted.

 

[SSquirrel]

gaming in Iowa City

Hey Ray Silver are you a student in Iowa City? My friend and I have been looking for people to game with...

He's not but I am...well West branch technically but close enough Since I don't remember if my email addr shows here or not, email me at hagen@giant.net

 

[kenjib]

CE is about immediate personal power. It doesn't wait. While it may think, it doesn't think long, nor does it plan long. It's about going in, destoying everything in sight, bullying, and maintaining a turf through sheer power.

What is "sheer power"? It isn't solely the ability to personally give the beat down. You can use tools to achieve your goals. There are many facets to power, as I've already said.

Not thinking long term is chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil.

 

[Psion]

CE is about immediate personal power. It doesn't wait. While it may think, it doesn't think long, nor does it plan long.
(...)
CE is about entropy, destruction, and mindless rage,

Once again, you are conflating chaos and stupidity.

CE can be mindless rage, but it doesn't have to be. CE just has not rules. That's all. You'll never here a demon utter something about some ancient code that the worst of their kind will not betray, nor will they honor any bargain that is not expedient to them. They respect only power and fear, but power and fear wears many faces.

 

[herald]

Come on S'mon, I said I didn't want to know!

 

[kenjib]

Try this: Graz'zt gives a command to a lithesome succubus, asking her to go off and see what Orcus is up to. Now the second that succubus is out of Graz'zt's sight, he has no reason to think she's not happily betraying him like mad. Given that she's Chaotic Evil, she probably is. Why would he believe a single thing she said upon her return? Why would he act upon that information unless he could independently confirm it for himself -- and if he could do that, he didn't need her in the first place. Except as tasteful decor, perhaps.

You haven't really addressed the crux of my argument, mutual self-interest. The succubus will only betray Gra'azt if it is in her self interest to do so. It is his goal to make sure that this is not the case, whether through intimidation or reward. The key thing missing here is the relationship between the succubus and Gra'azt. They do have a relationship, and for him to put her in this role, it is obviously defined in such a way that Gra'azt knows that it is likely that she will do what he says. He also accounts for the fact that she might not, he checks up on her, and even if he can find nothing to be suspicious about, he takes everything she says with a grain of salt.

 

[takyris]

This discussion is silly. I shall enter it.

By the definition of CE some people are using, any CE creature would be utterly out of luck if placed in a room with treasure and one door leading out, because the TRULY chaotic and evil thing to do would be to fireball the treasure and then run repeatedly into the walls trying to break them because you're too chaotic to use the door.

My understanding -- and your campaign could be different, but I believe my understanding is closer to the core rules -- is that a Chaotic or Evil creature does not HAVE to break rules or cheat or steal. It simply has no problem whatsoever doing so. And the creature will inherently tend to distrust laws. This doesn't mean that they can't follow orders or even be loyal to someone who is a powerful and respected master.

I think that most gamers make Lawful Evil societies that behave in a Chaotic Evil fashion, and then are out of luck on what to do in Chaotic Evil socieites. In a Lawful Evil society, assassination "just because" should not be the norm. The society is harsh, rigid, and moving through the ranks requires utter loyalty and ruthlessness. A Lawful Evil person who tried to get ahead by killing anyone who got in his way would be killed quickly for disturbing the status quo. Assassination of superiors would only go unpunished if it had the tacit approval of higher-ranking superiors. Law would rule, and would be ruthlessly wielded to gain advantage. People who talk about Lawful Evil societies with rampant assassinations and murders in the streets are missing the Lawful aspect of it. Lawful Evil societies hate civil war, because it's so messy, and it makes tax collection more difficult, so they only go there if it's absolutely the perfect time, and they've got all the backing they need.

In a Chaotic Evil society, like the demons have, you've got rulers. You've got followers. And the followers follow for precisely as long as it is to their advantage. Assassination is acceptible, as long as one can make the kill and still be standing at the end. And with all their magical abilities, a demon lord's reach is far longer than its physical grasp.

A demon lord could grab a balor and say, "My rule is absolute within my reach, and meaningless outside my reach. I understand that. Right now, however, my reach includes you. Serve me well and faithfully, and you shall occupy my throne when I go on to kill Demogorgon. And should Demogorgon attempt to pry you away with promises of power, remember that giving in to his wishes would mark you as ambitious enough to cross a greater power -- and such a trait would brand you as dangerous in Demogorgon's eyes, fit only to be used and dispatched quickly." If I were that balor, chaotic and evil and all that, I would serve the guy who just told me all that well and faithfully -- after all, I'm getting something out of it, I'm learning enough to potentially have cards to play against my current master someday in the future, and I'm riding the coat-tails of power. It's a good deal for me.

The idea that demons only respect brute force is silly. If that were true, succubi would be extinct. Yes, eventually, a CE society will be fully replaced as people rise to the top, get killed or supplanted, and end up as larvae again. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly by human standards. Anyone who rises to power is going to be the cream of the crop, the wisest, smartest, most charismatic force of evil that the multiverse has yet seen. They'll be in charge for awhile, with toadies helping them out, serving faithfully (because no one can make them a better offer that they trust) and they'll use diplomacy, deals (which they'll honor unless it REALLY helps them to break), traps, tricks, and everything they can to keep themselves in power.

The difference between Chaos and Law isn't that Chaos can't have an organized structure. It's that the chaotic organized structure is built on pragmatism and not ideals of honor, law, or correct behavior.

-Tacky

 

[The Serge]

What is "sheer power"? It isn't solely the ability to personally give the beat down. You can use tools to achieve your goals. There are many facets to power, as I've already said.

Not thinking long term is chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil.

Sheer power is the power a male lion that has taken over a pride; he comes in and eliminates a rival, he maintains his turf so long as he can prove he's the strongest, most agile, and most prepared, and he only does enough to maintain it, forcing his "lackies" to do his work for him while driving away internal, potential rivals. His goal is simple: mate with as many females as possible and protect my territory from other male lions and other threatening creatures (like hyena) who may damage my power.

And, let me clarify by long-term. A long-term goal by Graz'zt is probably a short-term goal of a Gelugon or Pit Fiend because they are different entities. LE and NE beings will always have longer term goals because one is trying to create a tyrannical, soulless society of slaves (and this typically takes time and a lot of intriuge), and the latter is trying to get things arranged for itself, regardless of the chaos or order it brings (I think Emperor Palpatine is like this). Both require more planning than someone who wants to run in, destroy an establishment or structure, and take over.

What you're suggesting would lead to a point in which there is no distinction in the Evils and there needs to be if one uses an Alignment system.