The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[herald]

In this example you are equating power solely with physical force, which is not an accurate assertion. As far as beings of inhuman intelligence levels are concerned, the goals presented in your last sentence above can be effectively met through many means other than personally walking up to and killing rivals in one-on-one, mortal, combat. All we know is that Gra'azt has a lower CR than Demogorgon. This means that, taken completely out of his context and dropped into a black box, Gra'azt is easier for four player characters in the standard fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue configuration to kill than Demogorgon is. I don't see how this directly correlates to political power in the Abyss. There is a very distant correlation, but there are so many other unquantified variables involved that making such connections is not really viable.

Well spoke, kenjib. Very well done.

 

[The Serge]

By the definition of CE some people are using, any CE creature would be utterly out of luck if placed in a room with treasure and one door leading out, because the TRULY chaotic and evil thing to do would be to fireball the treasure and then run repeatedly into the walls trying to break them because you're too chaotic to use the door.

I agree that it looks this way, but that's not what I'm suggesting (and I don't if anyone else on this board is suggesting this either).

A Chaotic evil person in a room full of treasure would take it and probably use it immediately or as soon as possible to make him/her stronger and will kill anyone trying to tax him. A NE person would probably consider what benefit the money will grant based upon it's goal to make himself happy... be that spend it immediately, or use it for some other purpose down the line. A LE person would probably try to find a way to keep and save the money without the authorities knowing and taxing him, invest it, and then use the dividends to pay someone to kill an enemy.

This does not imply stupidity, but differences in ethical perception. Fireballing the treasure would be plain stupid and of no value to the CE person. It would not empower him or make him stronger.

I think that most gamers make Lawful Evil societies that behave in a Chaotic Evil fashion, and then are out of luck on what to do in Chaotic Evil socieites. In a Lawful Evil society, assassination "just because" should not be the norm. The society is harsh, rigid, and moving through the ranks requires utter loyalty and ruthlessness. A Lawful Evil person who tried to get ahead by killing anyone who got in his way would be killed quickly for disturbing the status quo. Assassination of superiors would only go unpunished if it had the tacit approval of higher-ranking superiors. Law would rule, and would be ruthlessly wielded to gain advantage. People who talk about Lawful Evil societies with rampant assassinations and murders in the streets are missing the Lawful aspect of it. Lawful Evil societies hate civil war, because it's so messy, and it makes tax collection more difficult, so they only go there if it's absolutely the perfect time, and they've got all the backing they need.

I agree with much of this. An assassination in a LE environment is probably business-based and politically, rather than personally, motivated. It's also sanctioned by the powers that be within a law's framework.

A demon lord could grab a balor and say, "My rule is absolute within my reach, and meaningless outside my reach. I understand that. Right now, however, my reach includes you. Serve me well and faithfully, and you shall occupy my throne when I go on to kill Demogorgon. And should Demogorgon attempt to pry you away with promises of power, remember that giving in to his wishes would mark you as ambitious enough to cross a greater power -- and such a trait would brand you as dangerous in Demogorgon's eyes, fit only to be used and dispatched quickly." If I were that balor, chaotic and evil and all that, I would serve the guy who just told me all that well and faithfully -- after all, I'm getting something out of it, I'm learning enough to potentially have cards to play against my current master someday in the future, and I'm riding the coat-tails of power. It's a good deal for me.

Very eloquent and very well said.

However, in the end, the Balor is thinking about doing what it can to overthrow his master. He's not loyal, isn't thinking about honor or the opportunity offered, and is chafing under the Demon Prince. In LE societies, there is loyalty and not everyone is interested in individual power, but in using the law to protect one's interests. That Balor will eventually seek to have its own personal power and independence at the expense of the support and structure it has with the Demon Prince.

The idea that demons only respect brute force is silly. If that were true, succubi would be extinct. Yes, eventually, a CE society will be fully replaced as people rise to the top, get killed or supplanted, and end up as larvae again. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly by human standards. Anyone who rises to power is going to be the cream of the crop, the wisest, smartest, most charismatic force of evil that the multiverse has yet seen. They'll be in charge for awhile, with toadies helping them out, serving faithfully (because no one can make them a better offer that they trust) and they'll use diplomacy, deals (which they'll honor unless it REALLY helps them to break), traps, tricks, and everything they can to keep themselves in power.

Weaker individuals in a CE environment won't go extinct so long as they find a useful niche. In Escape from New York (a movie I don't really care for), there are weak people in this CE city that are alive. They exist because they have their uses for the time being. Stepping out of line mean instant reprisals.

The difference between Chaos and Law isn't that Chaos can't have an organized structure. It's that the chaotic organized structure is built on pragmatism and not ideals of honor, law, or correct behavior.
-Tacky

I will concede this point (although I think it's inferred in my Lion analogy in which pragmatism requires that a defeated male lion will usually flee and allow its young to die when overthrown by rivals).

Very well done, Tacky.

 

[Psion]

Because, if the Succubus believed that she could obtain the most good for herself by not betraying Graz'zt and instead by being loyal to him, then the Succubus would be LE and not CE.

Uh, no.

She is chaotic; you does not beleive there is any value in following laws and traditions. That does not mean that she will betray him if she thinks it will diminish her power or get her killed. That's not chaotic evil, that's chaotic stupid.

 

[barsoomcore]

So you're saying that your lackey is likely to betray you even when it is starkly opposed to their own self interest, just because it's fun?

I'm not saying that at all. The proof is, I didn't say that.

 

[The Serge]

Lions do not have the same tools at their disposal as demons do. If they did, they would use them. As it is, physical force is their primary asset. Demons, through superior intelligence, have a much wider range of options. If a demon does not take advantage of these other options and relies only on physical force, he will be utterly destroyed by someone else who does. Therefore it is utterly essential to the demon's self interest that he use all tools at his disposal, not just personal one-on-one combat power.

In this example you are equating power solely with physical force, which is not an accurate assertion.

Very good points, all around, and I'll admit that it could appear that my comments suggest that physical power is the only power. That's not my intention. However, as I've already stated, the primary drive for a Demon's authority does lie in its physical power to a degree far greater than that of Devils.

CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: physical power. Everything else is secondary. Yes, Graz'zt is crafty and he will use his considerable intellect to maintain his power; however, he also knows that he much be able to show his strength, not just suggest it. He must show that he can destroy, throw down, and beat down with the best of them to maintain his status in The Abyss. His intellect is like a lion's roar. Okay, other Demons hear it, but eventually, the roar is not going to stop someone from making you back it up.

 

[kenjib]

My point is that there's no way for him to be justified in feeling that she will likely do what he says, so if he's got a brain, he will NEVER trust her at all. In which case she's pretty much useless to him. Except, as I said, as decor.

Please correct me if this is not the crux of your argument.

Okay, so far we have an example of Asmodeus' stats. His intelligence score is 30. I would hazard to guess that Gra'azt's intelligence is pretty darned high. Heck, until we see the stats for all we know it could be far higher than both Demogorgon and Orcus (which would easily help to balance him out with them). A succubus has an intelligence of 16.

A succubus has a high intelligence for a human. Gra'azt has an unfathomably inhuman intelligence and wisdom. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he can reasonably predict the succubus' behavior. He's going to run mental circles around her and manipulate her into doing what he wants. Okay, he can't see everyone at once, this is true. There is still a heirarchy though. He controls a group of marliths. The marliths control lesser demons. There are lesser betrayals but only the high level ones matter, and these ones *are* involving people that he can observe on a direct level.

These webs of deception and trickery are all part of a great game. If Gra'azt gives up and doesn't even play he loses by default. It's a great puzzle and he has many means of finding the pieces with the vast magical resources at his disposal. He can then assemble these pieces and fill in missing spots with his vast and incomprehensible (literally) intelligence. Playing smart does not make him lawful. He still does what he wants when he wants. He still manipulates pawns. His pawns try to do what they want, when they want, but they aren't as good at it so they get used and manipulated.

 

[drnuncheon]

Indeed, I am deliberately using a very weak definition of trust. Let me approach it from another side:

WHENEVER Graz'zt speaks to me, I am going to assume he's lying. I will assume that he's lying until I get independent confirmation that what he says is true.

All I can think of is:

"And criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you." - Vizzini the Sicilian

The danger you run into there is that maybe Graz'zt wants you to suspect him. Maybe he wants you to spend your time and your energy trying to get confirmation of what he just told you. Maybe that will distract you from what he's really doing, or maybe your quest for confirmation will attract someone else's attention to you, or maybe the only way you could stop his plan is to act on what he said immediately - and he's just suckered you into sitting and thinking about it until it's too late to act. You can really think yourself into a corner this way, because you'll never be able to know that what you're doing isn't exactly what he wants you to do.

And all of those possibilities are manipulating you, even if you don't trust him.

J

 

[kenjib]

CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: physical power. Everything else is secondary.

I suppose this is just an impasse we are at then. I think that people will fear him because he destroys his opponents. I don't think they care whether he does it through guile, trickery, or physical force. If I know that he is deadly and can destroy me easily, I don't really care about what tool he uses to do that. It doesn't matter if I think he will personally come and destroy me, or I think he will trick Demogorgon into personally coming and destroying me. Either way I fear him for what he can do to me. I fear him and thus I obey for fear of crossing him.

It's not about physical power. It's just about power. I understand that you don't agree though, and I don't think there is much more room for argument on this particular point, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[drnuncheon]

CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: physical power. Everything else is secondary. Yes, Graz'zt is crafty and he will use his considerable intellect to maintain his power; however, he also knows that he much be able to show his strength, not just suggest it. He must show that he can destroy, throw down, and beat down with the best of them to maintain his status in The Abyss. His intellect is like a lion's roar. Okay, other Demons hear it, but eventually, the roar is not going to stop someone from making you back it up.

I think we both agree that Graz'zt can probably put the beat-down on any of the non-named demons, right? He can probably lay a righteous smackdown on many of the other demon lords. He may not be able to beat on Orcus or Demogorgon physically, but by that point it doesnt matter nearly as much, because he effectively has Orcus as an unwitting ally against Demogorgon and vice versa. I made a post on this earlier that seems to have been mostly ignored.

Graz'zt doesn't have to be able to beat Orcus or Demogorgon to maintain his position. He just has to be able to hurt them badly enough that coming after him is a bad idea. This could be true for any demon - a couple of mariliths might be able to take out a balor, but: which one's going to take the first shot? And can she trust the other one not to betray her, during the fight or afterwards? Of course not.

Demogorgon, not being stupid, is not going to get into an all-out war with Graz'zt that will leave him vulnerable to Orcus - because Orcus will take advantage of such a situation (being no dolt himself). Essentially, the Demogorgon-Orcus-Graz'zt triangle is a delicately balanced three-way Mexican standoff, because none of them are going to make a decisive move until they are darn good and sure that they can be the one that will be left standing when the smoke clears.

J

 

[kenjib]

I'm not saying that at all. The proof is, I didn't say that.

Ah, okay I'm sorry for appearing to put words into your mouth. I suppose I don't understand the point of your statement then.

Again, this is EXACTLY my point. You don't have spies and lackeys who will do things you tell them. You never will. You have potential enemies on all sides who not only MIGHT betray you for their own self-interest, but are in fact LIKELY to do so just because it amuses them. They're Chaotic Evil, right? Would YOU trust them?

You say explicitly here that your lackeys are likely to betray you just "because it amuses them." Is this correct?

So does this apply when their self-interests are starkly opposed to betrayal? Would it not then behoove Gra'azt to insure that this is the case? If this is the case, then would he not be able to trust her to some extent, all the while keeping in mind that she might betray him and that he must treat everything she says with that in mind? The trick for him is insuring her interests and unravelling the web of possible betrayal. It is difficult but not impossible. In fact, since Gra'azt is a master of deception isn't it possible that he could allow the succubus to think she is betraying him, all the while playing this to his advantage?

The succubus is clearly out of her mental league in this relationship and both of them know this. That is another form of intimidation.