The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[S'mon]

Well said Tacky, a very insightful analysis.

 

[coyote6]

Well said Tacky, a very insightful analysis.

I liked the opening line best.

The rest was good, too, but that was fine stuff. Almost hong-like, really.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I went away for half an hour; returned to see half a dozen threads wanting a peice of me; spent 40 minutes replying to this post by coyote6 and just before I submitted it my computer crashed.

If I didn't laugh I would cry!

...anyway, time to get back on the saddle.

Consider this an abbreviated version.

If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power,

Its about all kinds of power. But that power must be backed at a fundamental level by commensurate personal power.

then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered;

The Lord; Prince and Monarch suffixes are courtesy of Gary Gygax.

I'm guessing muckitymuck is a homebrewed title.

then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered;

Yes. I would say the top tier in such a hierarchy are all roughly comparative.

otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over.

It seems plausible that most demon habitable layers of the Abyss are under the thrall of the Demon Monarchs - even if it is just through intermediaries.

As in, the Demon Lord who pays lip service to Graz'zt only when hes around.

Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler,

Its plausible that at some point in the past the Abyss was unified under one leader - however such sovereignty will be relatively short, given it is the nature of demons to conspire against one another.

If Graz'zt were to gain an upper hand against his struggle with Orcus it would be likely Zuggtmoy (or another Monarch) would ally with Orcus to prevent Graz'zts power waxing (so as to destabilise the relative balance). Of course once Graz'zt had been beaten back; Orcus and Zuggtmoy would likely fall on each other fighting over the spoils. Demogorgon might ally with Zuggtmoy against Orcus. Orcus allies with Baphomet etc. etc.

or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).

Exactly.

However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that).

On any given day (1st Ed.) Graz'zt; Demogorgon or Orcus would be capable of defeating either of the others.

However, the chances are they wouldn't provoke a direct confrontation unless they believed they held an advantage of some sorts (which is the whole crux of the Graz'zt should be comparable to Orcus and Demogorgon argument).

BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power).

I meant toughest as in most powerful.

From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear).

Exactly.

Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by.

I don't see how that analogy is applicable herein though.

Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs.

I could see that happening should the demons become active outside the Abyss.

So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days.

Other Demons of power would seem the obvious choice.

 

[herald]

Well spoke Takyris.

 

[barsoomcore]

Deception is possible without trust (in others.) I think you are limiting your model situation too much here.

Indeed, I am deliberately using a very weak definition of trust. Let me approach it from another side:

WHENEVER Graz'zt speaks to me, I am going to assume he's lying. I will assume that he's lying until I get independent confirmation that what he says is true. At any event, I will certainly just as much time worrying about WHY he is telling me this than I will about whether or not it's true. And even once I find out that he's telling the truth I will continue to investigate why he is telling me this.

I'm also using a weak definition of "telling" -- this might include behaviour in a battle, evident weakness, and so on.

Now eventually I've got to assume that I've acquired enough information and I have to act. I may be wrong about the information I've acquired but in that case I certainly haven't been deceived -- I'm just wrong.

But is the whole thing a ruse? Did the enemy (who you never trusted) deliberately sacrifice a few lackeys to goad you into a hasty action? Or are you missing an opportunity for fearing too much?

You summarize the problem nicely.

First off, if you don't have spies and lackeys that will do things you tell them, you will never get ahead in the first place, so if you are paralyzed by fear that a lackey will betray you, you might as well quit you aspirations as a demon lord right there.

Again, this is EXACTLY my point. You don't have spies and lackeys who will do things you tell them. You never will. You have potential enemies on all sides who not only MIGHT betray you for their own self-interest, but are in fact LIKELY to do so just because it amuses them. They're Chaotic Evil, right? Would YOU trust them?

The typical way that demons stop lackeys from betraying them, I would imagine, is through fear and by making contingencies for the eventuality that one does betray you.

Sure. Can you do that for every single being in your army? Because, remember, you can't depend on hierarchy to handle things -- you have personally intimidate every single person you want to do something.

Now the deception comes when you convince someone that you are cowed and you are not, or are vulnerable, and you are not, both of which are percfectly possible if you are not trusted.

Okay, but you're only capable of convincing someone of that if they can obtain independent verification. No smart demon is going to charge off just because Orcus LOOKS vulnerable. The first question is always going to be, "Why does he want me to think that?"

All I'm saying is that REAL evil is kind of a silly concept.

 

[kenjib]

Sheer power is the power a male lion that has taken over a pride; he comes in and eliminates a rival, he maintains his turf so long as he can prove he's the strongest, most agile, and most prepared, and he only does enough to maintain it, forcing his "lackies" to do his work for him while driving away internal, potential rivals. His goal is simple: mate with as many females as possible and protect my territory from other male lions and other threatening creatures (like hyena) who may damage my power.

Lions do not have the same tools at their disposal as demons do. If they did, they would use them. As it is, physical force is their primary asset. Demons, through superior intelligence, have a much wider range of options. If a demon does not take advantage of these other options and relies only on physical force, he will be utterly destroyed by someone else who does. Therefore it is utterly essential to the demon's self interest that he use all tools at his disposal, not just personal one-on-one combat power.

In this example you are equating power solely with physical force, which is not an accurate assertion. As far as beings of inhuman intelligence levels are concerned, the goals presented in your last sentence above can be effectively met through many means other than personally walking up to and killing rivals in one-on-one, mortal, combat. All we know is that Gra'azt has a lower CR than Demogorgon. This means that, taken completely out of his context and dropped into a black box, Gra'azt is easier for four player characters in the standard fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue configuration to kill than Demogorgon is. I don't see how this directly correlates to political power in the Abyss. There is a very distant correlation, but there are so many other unquantified variables involved that making such connections is not really viable.

As far as rolling all alignments into one, please respond to takyris on that topic, as I think he is more eloquent in that regard than I am and thus I defer to his statement, with which I agree.

 

[Psion]

Can you do that for every single being in your army? Because, remember, you can't depend on hierarchy to handle things -- you have personally intimidate every single person you want to do something.

Right, however:
1) With CR 24, Graz'zt has enough power to cow every rank-and-file demon in the book.
2) Intimidation of direct damage by Graz'zt in one on one combat is not the only kind of intimidation that exists.

Okay, but you're only capable of convincing someone of that if they can obtain independent verification. No smart demon is going to charge off just because Orcus LOOKS vulnerable. The first question is always going to be, "Why does he want me to think that?"

Right. Which makes abyssal politics like a REALLY high stakes poker game. Sure, your enemy can bluff, and if you fall for it, he can win whether or not he has the clout to back up his bluff. But if he's not bluffing, he can lose big time if you call his bluff.

And demon lords are really good card players...

All I'm saying is that REAL evil is kind of a silly concept.

Perhaps. But then, perhaps sitting around a table pretending you are wizards and warriors defeating evil is silly, too.

 

[kenjib]

Again, this is EXACTLY my point. You don't have spies and lackeys who will do things you tell them. You never will. You have potential enemies on all sides who not only MIGHT betray you for their own self-interest, but are in fact LIKELY to do so just because it amuses them. They're Chaotic Evil, right? Would YOU trust them?

So you're saying that your lackey is likely to betray you even when it is starkly opposed to their own self interest, just because it's fun? That sounds like chaotic stupid to me.

 

[Celebrim]

Because, if the Succubus believed that she could obtain the most good for herself by not betraying Graz'zt and instead by being loyal to him, then the Succubus would be LE and not CE.

Imagine Graz'zt giving a speach, 'If we all just worked together...' or 'If we just trust each other...' or 'Let's form an alliance and we will be more powerful than we would be acting alone!' It wouldn't happen, because the place where they believe that is over in the Nine Hells.

Because the Succubus is CE her default mental state, the assumption upon which all her actions are based on, is that the most success and personal fulfillment is achieved when she is rebelious, disobedient, self-serving, disloyal and what not.

Graz'zt, if he bothers to send out a spy at all, sends it out knowing that the spy is attempting to betray him to whoever he is spying on, and attempting to peddle itself and its information to both parties in an attempt to maximize what it gains from the affair. Graz'zt knows this of course, and that the only thing he can certainly trust in is that his spy is not trustworthy, and that his opponent, being no fool, will not trust the information recieved by the spy either. In fact, Graz'zt probably knows that if he sends a spy out, that there is a very good chance that as soon as the spy is out of sight, that it goes off and does its own thing because it doesn't trust Graz'zt to reward it, nor does it love Graz'zt enough (and indeed at all) to risk its precious hide on a dangerous mission that ultimately is serving Graz'zt's best interests and not its own. Certainly, if the spy thinks that Graz'zt is capable of finding him again, the spy will report at the appointed time, but this report is just as likely to be complete fabrications as anything else. And it will hardly matter anyway, because Graz'zt will not believe the report, or that the spy is being loyal, or that the spy was not tricked, whether the report is true or not. In fact, the more truthful the report actually appeared to be, the more certain Graz'zt would be that he had been betrayed, because no demon would tell the truth except to lie, and no demon would prefer the truth to a lie except when the truth would serve to create a betrayal. If the demon was telling the truth, then it is certain that it is doing so for ulterior motives of the foulest sort. And the reverse is true, the more that Graz'zt attempted to gain the trust of the Succubi with gifts and favors, the more certain that the Succubi would be either that Graz'zt was weak and foolish and could be betrayed or that Graz'zt was preparing to betray her. Which is not to say that the Succubi wouldn't try to cozen out of Graz'zt gifts and favors. And on the other hand, the more brutally that Graz'zt treated the Succubi, the more she might respect and fear him, but the more she would hate him and seek to have him destroyed so that she might more easily advance her own position. After all, why would a self interested person willingly serve a strong master, when they could more easily avail themselves of the resources of a weak master?

The more I think about it, the more I think it impossible that we could understand the 'society' of truly CE beings, because for one thing such a 'society' would not exist.

 

[barsoomcore]

You haven't really addressed the crux of my argument, mutual self-interest.

My apologies. I will attempt to do so.

The succubus will only betray Gra'azt if it is in her self interest to do so. It is his goal to make sure that this is not the case, whether through intimidation or reward.

Right. But of course he has no way of knowing who else is intimidating or rewarding her, so he has no way of judging what she thinks is in her own self-interest, so he has no way of feeling like he can trust her.

In contrast to human society where we have such things as love and honour and loyalty to help us feel like we can trust each other.

They do have a relationship, and for him to put her in this role, it is obviously defined in such a way that Gra'azt knows that it is likely that she will do what he says.

Well, then Graz'zt is a fool, because, being a demon, it's NOT likely she will do what he says. My point is that there's no way for him to be justified in feeling that she will likely do what he says, so if he's got a brain, he will NEVER trust her at all. In which case she's pretty much useless to him. Except, as I said, as decor.

Human beings can feel that they are justified in thinking that others will do what they say because human beings are capable of love and loyalty and honour. Demons are not and so none of those reasons can apply. Graz'zt knows that as soon as the succubus gets a better offer she will turn on him -- and in fact, being the incarnation of Chaotic Evil, she'd think it FUN to turn on him. She'd actually go out LOOKING for offers. So why would he ever trust anything she ever says, unless he's watching her every second? And I don't care what is CR is, he can't watch everyone all the time, so he's unable to trust anyone who isn't within reach of his ability to destroy.

So even mutual self-interest is no means for demons to trust one another, because they can never judge their own ability to determine each other's self-interest, except for the case in which their personal power allows them to control the fate of another.