The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Zelda Themelin]

D&D is not a game of solars against evil. D&D is a game of mortals against evil.

If you want to put them so far beyond player capability, then you don't really need stats for them. The book has stats for players who will use them.

So, you are happy when monster are not beyond player capability. But player capablity has much to do what kind of equimpment they have, what kind of classes dm allow, etc.

No, D&D is game not a game of solars against evil, neither it is game about god-slaying mortals, but it can be made game of either.

And since, within core rules exist such powerful critters with advanced HD, your 'player capability' is pretty much beyond the issue.

Yep, I know they give us lords of evil to slay (by statting them so low, makes it pretty apperant), but they could have made them a bit more efficient monters, since such already exist within core rules.

I find it likely, that pc:s travelling all the way to low levels of Abyss to slay demon-lord, have slayed evil dragon terrorizing their some kingdom or somthing like that.

And I am feeling this challenge, that should be greater, is actually throwback.

Also, I don't see stats needed merely for player-centered events. Sometimes I need stats to see how monsters do agains each others. Players aren't everywhere, and while you don't seem to feel it nessecery, I actually use rules when deciding events player weren'´t involted.

And if winning something is beyond players, merely by their normal means, it gives reason to do quests to make it possible and gain those means, and more logic to, why ancient evil finally meets it's end at the hands of mortal heroes.

Oh, and feel truly sorry for those playing evil characters. They might want to slay that 66th Solar (whatever dm names it),
while good heroes only have to worry about Graz'zt".

And while you don't need stats, doen't mean I wouldn't.


Though, it's not a problem for me to advance them and stuff, but lack of power usually also accounts for lack of original special abilites, and I have invent them myself.

 

[greymarch]

I am not going into why my gaming group only uses official stats for NPCs. That is a topic that belongs in another discussion. I just hope that the BoVD either provides stats for divine versions of these demonlords and archdevils, or it gives very specific details about how to modify these badboys.

From what I have read so far, the demonlords and archdevils in the BoVD are a joke to epic level characters. That's perfectly fine if that is what WOTC intended, but if there is a way to find official divine versions of these guys, that will challenge Epic level groups, then I will do everything I can to find them.

 

[RobNJ]

Technically, a party of four 32nd level characters should be able to beat Asmodeus with little fuss and that just makes no sense.

You're tossing off, "a party of four 32nd level characters," pretty lightly. That's 4 characters, each more powerful than whatever UberNPC people might like to complain about from any given setting. There shouldn't be loads of 32nd level characters.

And I put it to you that if the CRs had been in the 40s, people would still be complaining. Either about their being too weak still or about their being too powerful.

The beautiful thing about 3rd Edition is that it is so surpassingly easy to alter published material, that such complaints are pretty meaningless.

Again, it goes back to, "This book wasn't written with someone telepathically scanning my mind. It wasn't to my precise specifications--damn them!"

 

[der_kluge]

*yawn*

Am I the only one that is completely apathetic about this book? I mean, Deities and Demigods - ooh, ooh - stats for gods that my group will never fight, nor ever meet. How cool is that. Now we get stats for Demons.

Really. I thought this stuff was uber-cool when I was 12. Now, I just think it's juvenile. Don't get me wrong; if you think this stuff is cool - more power to you. I'm not saying that you're juvenile for liking it, I'm just saying these kinds of rules do not interest me, whatsoever. I can't imagine that I'm the only one with this position.

I don't need rules for possessions. Isn't it enough to just say "this person is possessed". It's worked fine for 25+ years. Why define how that works now? I don't understand.

 

[RobNJ]

I am not going into why my gaming group only uses official stats for NPCs. That is a topic that belongs in another discussion.

It's actually extremely relevent to discerning whether or not you have a valid complaint, and thus germane to this discussion.

 

[RobNJ]

Re: *yawn*

Am I the only one that is completely apathetic about this book? I mean, Deities and Demigods - ooh, ooh - stats for gods that my group will never fight, nor ever meet. How cool is that. Now we get stats for Demons.

Really. I thought this stuff was uber-cool when I was 12. Now, I just think it's juvenile. Don't get me wrong; if you think this stuff is cool - more power to you. I'm not saying that you're juvenile for liking it, I'm just saying these kinds of rules do not interest me, whatsoever. I can't imagine that I'm the only one with this position.

I don't need rules for possessions. Isn't it enough to just say "this person is possessed". It's worked fine for 25+ years. Why define how that works now? I don't understand.

So, what's the point of your comments, if not to say that people who like it are juvinile? To put everyone on notice that you're not interested? Seems rather suspicious.

 

[The Serge]

.... but if there is a way to find official divine versions of these guys, that will challenge Epic level groups, then I will do everything I can to find them.

Then you'll be spending a lot of time looking. The only official stats so far will be those in the BoVD.

If you're interested, you may consider checking out the stats that some people (myself included) have offered on these and the WotC boards. While some might be perceived as wild, some are more in line with these guys truly being Epic. The stats I created fall within the 50 to 60 CR range (although U_K thinks they're just gods without the name ).

While I respect your groups convictions (I usually only use official material as well, particularly spells and magic-items), there are some decent unofficial adaptations out there.

 

[BryonD]

How are they not compatible? They both use the same baseline rules. It's just that the BoVD does not assume you have or will be using the ELH -- which is the current norm for WotC books (I think WOtC are being a bit conservative with this line, but at least they included psionic creatures in the MMII...)

It is very clear that a consistent power curve is not assumed in both cases.

Being mechanically compatible does not mean they are play compatible.

I agree with Meepo, that they can be adapted easily enough. But that adapatation would be required to make them compatible.
If Grazz'zt is a basic challenge expected to only drain 20 to 25% of the resources for 4 L24 chars, he can't really be a true power of evil in a game compatible with the ELH.

These beings, by definition, are supposed to establish a benchmark in power. The monster section in the ELH is not even comparable to some of these presented here. So, clearly, the power level assumptions are not compatible.

 

[RobNJ]

It is very clear that a consistent power curve is not assumed in both cases.

But it would be impossible to present creatures that would be challenging to both epic characters and mortal characters. That follows pretty much by the definition of the concepts.

So the question is, who do they write the book for? The larger audience of non-epic groups, or the more rarified epic audience?

The conclusion is obvious.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Oh, and hello Craig !

Hey Aloïsius mate!

So you're disappointed Thrin's great-uncle is merely CR 24 now ? I guess that's indeed a bit humiliating. But where's the problem?

Well I had already resigned myself to the fact that the Demon Princes and Arch-devils were going to be hovering around Challenge Rating 30.

I had already resigned myself that any divinity they possessed would need to be 'tacked on' afterwards.

However, its a double slap in the face for the once proud Graz'zt to be reduced to abyssal punk.

I don't think your Odin, for example, is the one in D&Dg either...

Admittedly this is even worse than the Odin fiasco.

The loss of power of archfiend seems in line, IMHO, with the loss of power of deities, so that is, at least, consistent with itself.

But thats just it. Graz'zt is no longer consistent with the major Demon Princes!

Of course, that requires extra work for those who want cosmic beings with more grandeur; but in your case that work is already made, isn't it ?

Like I said, my complaint is not about the measure of power; but rather the relative measure of power. Graz'zt (if we use the parameters in the BoVD) should have been CR29.