The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Psion]

In the same way there are stats for gods? They qualify as being "far beyond player capability" in many minds and there are still stats for them.

Which is ridiculous. The deity stats in DDG are a waste of space IMNSHO. Devil stats in BoVD, by way of contrast, are not.

And, let's face it, this book was written with ELH in mind;[/qutoe]

Perhaps it was... that is why Asmodeus is there to be the final villain for your 28th level characters. That doesn't mean the book wasn't made to have "core appeal."

That said... the manuscript for this book was completed when ELH was still in its formative stages.

Technically, a party of four 32nd level characters should be able to beat Asmodeus with little fuss and that just makes no sense.

Would you listen to yourself! That's four 32nd level characters. THIRTY SECOND LEVEL. That's "phenomenal cosmic power." That's Hercules and Modru... and beyond. THIRTY SECOND LEVEL is NOTHING to trifle with. That's huge. An 18th level mage can cast wish multiple times a day, but 32nd level characters should, theoretically, be able to face 128 such wizards.

ELH is not a book about run-of-the-mill heroes, but epic heroes. And 32nd level characters aren't close to "new" epic level characters.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

It is very clear that a consistent power curve is not assumed in both cases.

Being mechanically compatible does not mean they are play compatible.

I agree with Meepo, that they can be adapted easily enough. But that adapatation would be required to make them compatible.
If Grazz'zt is a basic challenge expected to only drain 20 to 25% of the resources for 4 L24 chars, he can't really be a true power of evil in a game compatible with the ELH.

These beings, by definition, are supposed to establish a benchmark in power. The monster section in the ELH is not even comparable to some of these presented here. So, clearly, the power level assumptions are not compatible.

Well, basically you have to make one of three choices about your campaign world.

1) Epic-level characters don't exist, and demon lords are extremely powerful. CR 28 sounds good for this.

2) Epic-level characters exist, and the demon lords are extremely powerful. Quasi-divine sounds good here.

3) Epic-level characters exist, and while the demon lords are powerful, there are much more powerful things out there. CR 28 works here.

It seems pretty easy to pick one of the three and adjust the demon lord stats appropriately. The default assumption is #1, which is the only safe one to assume unless you want to require the use of the ELH.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Psion mate!

I really have to ask what level games you run. 24-32 CRs aren't a challenge for you?

I know this wasn't addressed at me; but I ain't even picking up any experience points for roughing up the Lords of the Nine*!

...and those of you that know me know I ain't joking!

*Incidently I estimate they would last about 3 rounds.

If you hand out levels so readily that this CR is a pushover, I don't think the fault les with the book.

I agree the fault doesn't lie with the book in this respect.

Doesn't 20th level mean anything to anyone anymore? Sheesh...

Apparently it means you can whip Graz'zt and be home in time for cornflakes.

 

[The Serge]

You're tossing off, "a party of four 32nd level characters," pretty lightly. That's 4 characters, each more powerful than whatever UberNPC people might like to complain about from any given setting. There shouldn't be loads of 32nd level characters.

No, I don't think I am treating them lightly. And I also don't agree that "there shouldn't be loads of 32nd level characters" when one takes epic levels into consideration -- something the designers of BoVD do. The fact remains that this book does use ELH, although not officially, in much the same way Call of Cthulu uses Deities and Demigods for the Elder Gods and the Great Old Ones.

As for 32nd level characters... a group of 32nd level characters would have a hard time beating a demigod, but will have no trouble routing Asmodeus. Doesn't make sense to me.

And I put it to you that if the CRs had been in the 40s, people would still be complaining. Either about their being too weak still or about their being too powerful.

Perhaps people would still complain. I know I would primarily because I don't think Asmodeus, Demogorgon, et al. should have CR because they should be treated as gods or god-like.

I have no problem with the manner in which WotC handled gods. Initially, I was resistant to statted gods, but when I saw how they were handled, I was satisfied. I am of the position that these entities should have been handled the same way... especially considering the precedent of 1ed, which the designers have been using since day one.

The beautiful thing about 3rd Edition is that it is so surpassingly easy to alter published material, that such complaints are pretty meaningless.

Agree with the first portion of your statement, but not with the last. Yes, 3ed is very flexible and adaptable. However, I do think that constructive criticism remains par for the course... especially when some of the decisions have been inconsistent.

Again, it goes back to, "This book wasn't written with someone telepathically scanning my mind. It wasn't to my precise specifications--damn them!"

For some, this may be the case. For others, and I suspect this is the situation with some people involved in this conversation, that's utter nonsense.

As I've said, I, like many others initially disagreed with the direction WotC took with statting gods. What we did see, however, makes sense and works well for many people. Now, the same may happen with the arch-fiends once we all get to see it. However, based upon what's been shared so far, many people want to share their position. Nothing to do with meeting "precise specifications."

 

[BryonD]

But it would be impossible to present creatures that would be challenging to both epic characters and mortal characters. That follows pretty much by the definition of the concepts.

So the question is, who do they write the book for? The larger audience of non-epic groups, or the more rarified epic audience?

The conclusion is obvious.

I don't have any argument with that logic.

But that is simply a basis for WHY they are not compatible.

I would prefer that they were compatible. CR24 is not an OVERWHELMING challenge to L20 chars. IMO, Grazz'zt should be.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

No, these guys should have a higher CR than all beings in the ELH... Heck, Elminister has a CR higher than most of these guys, and that's ridiculous!

IMHO there is very little about Elminster that is not ridiculous, but that's just me.

Honestly, I don't think there are that many campaigns in the (real) world where characters even get to Epic levels. It seems to me that if a campaign involves PC's destroying gods and super-powerful demonic beings in the first place, it may be about time to retire the party (or maybe just put it on hold) and start a new campaign.

Everything in D&D is so completely relative that arguing power-levels is altogether pretty pointless. I mean, the characters gain power => the bad guys gain power, right? I can see why it would be disappointing to many that the stats of these demonic powers are a little weak, but my best suggestion would be simply to limit PC experience-rates; the XP rules as written in the DMG are for more 'typical' playing groups who can only play once in a while. If you are going for a long-term campaign and want it to end with a 'bang' (perhaps literally), then slowly work them up to required level (which would probably be a few CR's lower than the BBEG in question) and subsequently have them fight him/her/it at the end. Simple.

If you don't think PC's should ever be fighting something this powerful, then don't use the stats. Just say that Orcus is a divine being and he cannot be destroyed by mortals.

 

[greymarch]

I have started a new thread about whether official NPCs should be modified by a DM. We can discuss that topic there. I simply do not find it relevant for this discussion, and I will no longer discuss it here. If you wish a response from me, you will have to ask for it at the link below, for I shall not post it on this thread. Here is the link:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27021

What I am hoping people on this thread can help me figure out is, how specific is the BoVD when it comes to modifying the demonlords and archdevils? How easy will it be to change the badboys into NPCs that can challenge an epic level party, or does the BoVD come with divine versions of these badboys that will already challenge an epic level party? Someone earlier mentioned that the archfiends in the BoVD were written with epic level players in mind. Is this true? How can someone prove this? They seem underpowered to me, but if the BoVD does a good job of providing divine power for these archfiends, then perhaps I can be convinced.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there RobNJ!

But it would be impossible to present creatures that would be challenging to both epic characters and mortal characters. That follows pretty much by the definition of the concepts.

Actually it is possible. You have deities for the epic challenges and avatars* for the tough mortal challenges.

*and I'm not talking about the pointless treatment of avatars in Deities & Demigods.

So the question is, who do they write the book for? The larger audience of non-epic groups, or the more rarified epic audience?

The conclusion is obvious.

Actually the conclusion is that they should have made the stats for both as I explained above. Deities that can challenge epic PCs and Avatars that represent a challenge for high (though non-epic) level mortals.

 

[RobNJ]

However, I do think that constructive criticism remains par for the course...

It's not concstructive criticism. The book is written. There's no way you can help with the construction.

Furthermore, what you're in essence saying is, "This is how I wanted it to be," but that's not only not constructive criticism, it's not valid criticism. If there had been some error, or problem with the book, it might be valid to say, "They made a mistake here." Your complaints are with tone and preference and flavor, about creative decisions that were made that may be only relevent in specific to the campaign or campaigns you happen to run. It has no applicability to the wider world.

It is not constructive, helpful, useful or enlightening to know that you would've liked divine archfiends. Furthermore, by all accounts, the BoVD talks about making these characters divine, so what's there to complain about?

They chose to go a way you do not prefer. What kind of constructive criticism can possibly be applied to this situation? "Next time, do it more the way I would've liked it"?

 

[Psion]

As for 32nd level characters... a group of 32nd level characters would have a hard time beating a demigod, but will have no trouble routing Asmodeus. Doesn't make sense to me.

From this statement, it's obviously not a matter of making sense. It's a matter of you not agreeing with the power assessment of the demon lords and arch devils in 3e, which is ultimately a personal issue.

It's perfectly consistent with the line that they have towed in 3e. They have made an effort to segragate deities from demon lords. It's not a move that I fall in line with in my campaign (I blur the line between deity and demon prince), but they are being self-consistant. Within the framework they have created for 3e, it does make sense.