The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Psion]

To which the reply came (not from you or RobNJ) that they were. Obviously, that is not really correct.

Based on the position that an Epic Level character should not surpass a demon lord in power. That is not the same as saying it is not compatible. That is just you telling us where you think the appropriate level of challenge for a demon lord is.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

An 18th level mage can cast wish multiple times a day, but 32nd level characters should, theoretically, be able to face 128 such wizards.

Yep, in theory, but he can use up to 17 000 to 34 000 exp before dropping a level (which is not allowable) and each wish eats up 5000 exp or more.

However, that theory about being able to face 128 such wizards at the same time (or at the same day, for that matter), and have equal changes of winning (or even changes at winning), is quite impossible within rules.

However, thats way to tell, how hard it is to gain levels at the high ends. Or way to say, that CR system is broken at highter levels.

18th level is huge, 20th more so, over that almost unheard of IMO. For humanoids, that is.

But, we are speaking of mortals here. Immortal monsters don't have same limitations.

Why people so lightly use idea of 32th, is because they arent't really THAT much more powerful, than 20th level characters.

And depending on what books have been used, or even what core classes have been used, 20th levels character have quite different strengts and weaknesses. Even different power-levels. And in some cases (if prestige class min-maxing was not the issue), it's just because they are strong at diffrent situations.

However, I am clad they didn't use epic rules, since IMO they are crappy. But they aren't now consistant even with MM power levels, and I expected them to be in line with most powerful Solars.

Oh, and Graz'zt got shaft indeed, compared to his fellow demon lords.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Psion mate!

Which is ridiculous. The deity stats in DDG are a waste of space IMNSHO. Devil stats in BoVD, by way of contrast, are not.

I agree that the deity stats in D&Dg were badly done.

Would you listen to yourself! That's four 32nd level characters. THIRTY SECOND LEVEL. That's "phenomenal cosmic power." That's Hercules and Modru... and beyond. THIRTY SECOND LEVEL is NOTHING to trifle with. That's huge.

I agree. Thats pretty much going to be the toughest bunch of characters on any given planet...but not in the planes themselves.

An 18th level mage can cast wish multiple times a day, but 32nd level characters should, theoretically, be able to face 128 such wizards.

Unless the official Challenge Rating system broke down at that level and 32nd-level characters were more akin to about 16 18th-level characters.

It's perfectly consistent with the line that they have towed in 3e. They have made an effort to segragate deities from demon lords. It's not a move that I fall in line with in my campaign (I blur the line between deity and demon prince), but they are being self-consistant. Within the framework they have created for 3e, it does make sense.

Not quite. Iuz (Dragon #294) is vastly more powerful than his father Graz'zt - representative of a ridiculous power swing from 1st Ed.

I estimate Iuz is at least CR37.

 

[The Serge]

From this statement, it's obviously not a matter of making sense. It's a matter of you not agreeing with the power assessment of the demon lords and arch devils in 3e, which is ultimately a personal issue.

It's perfectly consistent with the line that they have towed in 3e. They have made an effort to segragate deities from demon lords. It's not a move that I fall in line with in my campaign (I blur the line between deity and demon prince), but they are being self-consistant. Within the framework they have created for 3e, it does make sense.

Yes, it is a matter of "making sense" when one considers the fact that Asmodeus is a planar ruler. As a planar ruler, I would expect him to be of greater power than a demigod, lesser god, or intermediate god. Beyond that, well....

No, they are not being consistent. If they were, Lolth should have been a Demon Prince along with Demogorgon and Orcus orDemogorgon and Orcus should be Lesser or Intermediate gods with Lolth (rather than what appears to be a quasi-copout). A primary motivation Monte Cook and the designers had with this was to let people have an easier time beating up on the Lords of the Nine and Demon Princes like one could in 1ed. Although Upper Krust and I don't agree with the specifics on this, we do agree that it would have been fine to have these guys as full-fledged divine beings with avatars that could be beaten. Thus, epic level and strong lower level characters could have their cake and eat it too.

 

[greymarch]

Just because a monster is above CR 20 does not make it a challenge for epic level groups.

Check out the MM2 and the ELH. Take a CR 28 from the MM2, and run it against an epic level party. Now take a CR28 from the ELH, and run it against an epic level party. Creatures from the MM2 cannot even begin to compare with creatures from the ELH. The monsters from the ELH are much more difficult, even though they might have the same CR as a monster from the MM2. If I may steal from George Orwell, to put it simply: "not all CRs are created equal, some CRs are greater than others."

They should have put specific stats in the BoVD for normal versions of the archfiends, and specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends, instead of just giving us recommendations for how a DM can change them. Then, the archfiends would have been useful to regular campaigns, and epic level campaigns.

 

[RobNJ]

As for whether it has application to the greater world or not, it could be argued that most of the comments on this topic have no greater application. However, that's irrelevent; if people want to share their positions and offer advice for potential (however unlikely) future adjustments, what's wrong with that?

Nothing, as long as you cop to its being about your particular tastes, rather than some error with the game. There's a vast chasm of difference between the two. I submit that your arguments on this thread so far--until they were challenged--focused on an objective failure of the book rather than your own preferences. Or you attempted to mask your preferences as absolute failings in the book.

I find expecting broadcast material to conform to your preferences (rather than wishing it had in a public forum) to be problematic, to put it mildly.

 

[RobNJ]

They should have put specific stats in the BoVD for normal versions of the archfiends, and specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends, instead of just giving us recommendations for how a DM can change them. Then, the archfiends would have been useful to regular campaigns, and epic level campaigns.

Should have. Should have. They should have put out a book to your specifications, you mean? There is no "should" here, palie. Seriously. You want divine archfiends, that's just fine. But WotC didn't fail by not putting them in.

I mean it's like me saying, "They should have stretched out the races sections in The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to 1 page on each sub-race." I would expect people to deride me for saying that. My particular tastes aren't what these books are written for. I'd like to see a lot more detail on races, but it is completely unreasonable to expect that my whims will be catered to.

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[herald]

I'm kinda surprised at the fact that if people aren't happy with the fact that their favorite Demon or Devil isn't quite the CR that they like, maybe they should consider that's a "Raw" stat. It really shouldn't reflect what the encounter would be.

After all, It's not like any of these bad guys are going to meet you toe to toe alone. And its not like there going to meet you in a place that's not prepared to give them an advantage. So It would appear to me that by using the "raw CR" is a bad benchmark of how an encounter would go.

As a matter of fact I imagine that a game master might want to pour over "Strongholder's Guidebook" to make sure that the Bad Guy has all the advantages when the hero's come a'knocking. After all, these guys have unlimited time, and practically unlimited resources and Man(fiendish)power. Some of thier strongholds are going to rate in the billions of gp. The encounter CR to go up against any of these guys should go up by half if not double the CR they normally have.

IMHO, when anything is stated out, I consider it plain vanilla, and that I'm supposed to choose how many and how much added flavor I want.

Or am I the only one who feels this way?

 

[greymarch]

Should have. Should have. They should have put out a book to your specifications, you mean? There is no "should" here, palie. Seriously. You want divine archfiends, that's just fine. But WotC didn't fail by not putting them in.

I mean it's like me saying, "They should have stretched out the races sections in The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to 1 page on each sub-race." I would expect people to deride me for saying that. My particular tastes aren't what these books are written for. I'd like to see a lot more detail on races, but it is completely unreasonable to expect that my whims will be catered to.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Its so hard for you to understand, because you are FLAT-OUT WRONG.

We are discussing the BoVD, and what makes it good, and what makes it bad. It is bad that they did not include specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends. WOTC did fail by not making a version of the archfiends that are ELH worthy. The book would have greater value if the archfiends worked for both normal campaigns and ELH. Now that is EASY to understand, and everyone understands it.

 

[herald]

Rob, you are always one step ahead of me and always take the words right out of my mouth.