The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Zelda Themelin]

No, that is not necessarily true. Even if you took rule of three's cant as law, you are saying that personal power is the only "power". Not so.

However chumpy you think Grazzt is, he his still more powerful than his minions. Now due to treachery and guile he has parleyed that into a position equivalent to those of Orcus and Demogorgon, who probably got to their position by bumping heads (perhaps literally in the case of Demogorgon ). Grazzt, by being sneaky and wathing his back, gains his power in a different way, obviously.

Yep, good point.

Oh, and I woudn't care about these sort of things in games run by other people, but sometimes those ancient standards of my game from times long past rise their ugly head.

Still, I typically take Abyss for place, where personal power matters most, and Hells for place, where any kind of power, especially one coming from number of underlings/allies/rank/leadership matters most.

Nah, and I sure don't take any 'cants' as law, just flipped though my mind.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Numion!

I still don't get why Grazzt would have to be able to go toe-to-toe with everyone to be cool. Isn't it his character, tactics and mentality that make him cool? Not whether he can get in the ring with anyone.

In the Abyss you have to be 'All that AND a bag of potato chips!'

Somehow I don't think that's how they settle things in the underworld.. Demogorgon steps in and demands one-on-one with Grazz't? [Dr.Evil]Riiiiight[/Dr.Evil],

Actually whats more likely is that Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's territory backed by a million strong army of demons. Graz'zts equally strong forces engage them but Demogorgon is able to roll through Graz'zts strongest units and champions like a hot knife through butter. Graz'zt can't engage Demogorgon personally since he'll just get crushed so the two-headed one is left to wreak havoc throughout Graz'zts strongest troops.

Remember, the guy has his considerable entourage with him, and other resources, so he'll give a 30th level group a run for their money if need be. I agree with WotC's decision to make these creatures almost usable with just the core rules. They'll probably work with ELHB, if you don't take the game much past 30+ level.

Possibly. But I'm only concerned with the relative measure of power between Graz'zt; Demogorgon and Orcus.

And UK, I wouldn't put Solar at CR 25. Maybe 22 or 23. My 19th level group defeated a solar and a planetar, once they had escaped from the first fight. CR 25 should be total overkill for 19th level group.

I would be interested to hear how that encounter transpired?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu and Psion!

I believe 132 is correct.

If the rule is x2, that's 132, Krusty.

60 x 2 = 120
6 x 2 = 12

120+12 = 132.

Actually that was an inside joke between S'mon and myself. He ran the adventure and had inadvertantly scribbled 122 hit points down for Lolth (I have his Queen of the Demonweb Pits module). Something that was only picked up on after the adventure*.

*I didn't participate in that adventure myself.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

That doesn't mean it's a good one.

For example, the following two characters have the exact same CR:
Ftr5, Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, 60 hp.
Ftr5, Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, 25 hp. (Everything else identical)

Obviously in a fight, the first one will whup the tar out of the second one so badly that his entire family will need a cure light wounds. The first one is unequivocably more powerful. And yet they're the same CR!

Yes, I agree. CR alone is problematic way to compare power, and it's often misused too.

This is reason, why I feel doubtful about advanced HD adding so little CR. Those hit points/Saves and other stuff matter greatly.
And in case of some monsters they mean more, than with others.

Lets say, monster with 100 hp cast heal on himself, it's pretty different, if he had 400 hp instead.

Much hp draw longer fights and much can happen with long fights.
PC:s run out of spells, they get hurt, and if monster happens to have fast healing or something like that, it doesn't have to bother to stop heal that minor damage so often.

How much those advanced HD count depends much on monster.
How useful adding character levels also depends on monster, and what kind of party will be facing it.

I've played one game from 1st level to 23th level (without epic rules), and we run into this 'supposingly just little advanced monster' problem constantly.

 

[IceBear]

Like many sacred cows, 3E has changed the power levels of the various demon lords. IF you didn't know what the relative power levels were supposed to be based on the past editions, would this thread have died awhile ago?

For those that don't like the power levels, fix them. Better yet, maybe someone should contact Monte and ask for the rationale on why the power levels changed so we have a basis to understand what's going on. It could be something as simple as the war has gone badly for Graz'zt and now Orcus and Demogorgon are more powerful than him in the 'stock' D&D universe.

Anyway, I don't think applying 1st and 2nd Edition information to 3E is 100% appropriate.

IceBear

 

[Kaelynna]

Upper_Krust....RE: Asmodeus' stats

I have seen the stats for Asmodeus. They were handed out at Gencon as a preview. Someone was kind enough to post them on the WotC boards.

As far as I can tell he is indeed CR32...though as you mentioned above; under my auspices that means something other than a party of four 32nd-level characters will roll over him using (approx.) 25% of their resources.

Upper_Krust,

Can you provide me the link to Asmodeus' stats? I would really like to see them.

Thanks!
- Kae.

 

[RobNJ]

I, for one, like the demon princes right where they are, so I guess that makes me a non-power gamer. Or something. I dunno.

If it ever were an issue for me, I would probably give them divine rank 0, not so much because I have a problem with their being attackable and defeatable by 20th level characters, as because I wouldn't want them to be permanently dead because of those characters.

Or I might just give them a special ability that they can only be permanently killed by demon lords or divine rank 0+. Sort of like the DR X/silver of dietyhood.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi drnuncheon!

That doesn't mean it's a good one.

For example, the following two characters have the exact same CR:
Ftr5, Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, 60 hp.
Ftr5, Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, 25 hp. (Everything else identical)

Obviously in a fight, the first one will whup the tar out of the second one so badly that his entire family will need a cure light wounds. The first one is unequivocably more powerful. And yet they're the same CR!

Actually detailed under my system those characters would have a different Challenge Rating!

It's also trivial to imagine a scenario where a creature would be far more challenging for a demon lord than it would be for a party of adventurers - perhaps it's got a special quality that gives it SR50 vs. outsiders.

I don't think I have encountered a monster with localised spell resistance?

That would not raise its CR much, because it really wouldn't be that big of a deal for a party of adventurers - but for a demon lord it would definitely make things more difficult. That's not to say that Graz'zt couldn't find a way around it - but it would be more difficult for him to defeat the creature than it would be for your typical party of adventurers.

So my point is that any comparison of two monsters based on CR alone is going to be flawed, because CR is just a number, and it cannot take into account the specifics of the situation.

PCs are just as likely to be affected by the specifics of a situation as anyone else.

Thats why you determine the base power of the monster from the ground up. Then you can apply situational modifiers.

A dire lion and a 'stock' weretiger are the same CR, but the lion is unable to penetrate the weretiger's DR on anything but a critical - who do you think is going to win? Heck, I'd bet on the 'stock' weretiger vs. a dire tiger - a creature that's 3 CR higher! Does that mean the stock weretiger should be CR 8? Hardly - the average 5th level PC party will have access to silver or magical weapons - heck, they've got fireball - and without its DR the weretiger isn't nearly as tough. An 8th level party would barely notice it as a speedbump - but they'd definitely notice the dire tiger.

As far as I can tell:

Dire Lion CR6 (just barely)
Weretiger CR7
Dire Tiger CR8

So as you can see, trying to play "who'd-win" using just CRs is a nonsensical game, because CRs don't measure what you need to play "who'd-win" - at least, where one of the parties concerned is not a party of adventurers.

They do when I determine them though.

Any difficulty is in determining a given situation.

eg. Undead are easier to defeat with clerics. Constructs are more difficult to tackle without fighters. Creatures with the Cold subtype are easier to defeat if you have access to fire based spells and items. etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Zelda mate!

Yes, I agree. CR alone is problematic way to compare power, and it's often misused too.

This is reason, why I feel doubtful about advanced HD adding so little CR. Those hit points/Saves and other stuff matter greatly.
And in case of some monsters they mean more, than with others.

Lets say, monster with 100 hp cast heal on himself, it's pretty different, if he had 400 hp instead.

Of course both Heal and Harm are broken...but thats perhaps a topic for another thread.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Upper_Krust....RE: Asmodeus' stats

Hi Kaelynna mate!

Upper_Krust,

Can you provide me the link to Asmodeus' stats? I would really like to see them.

Here it is:

http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=118;t=002571

Ignore the doofus about six posts down who said Asmodeus was more like CR29.