The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[S'mon]

This kind of thing is appropriate for a web enhancement, but complaining that they didn't write the book the way you wanted it to be written, and that is a failing, is an irritating, selfish and short sighted argument.

You're a bad, bad man. You're going on my Ignore list.

 

[Psion]

I disagree strongly - you're ingnoring the fact (IMO), that to succeed as a Valmont you need to be in a Lawful (maybe Lawful Evil) society to start with!

To succeed as Valmont, perhaps.

To succeed as Grazzt, not necessarily.

Valmont was only an example to illustrate that the CE mentality is not limited to ravening barbarians. (And yes, given his total disregard for social proprietry, I think Valmont is chaotic.)

Lets take the situation someone put up about demonic armies clashing in the abyss, and rulers popping in to confront one another person to person.

Grazzt, through his network of spies, catches wind of this. So he flees from his fortress and tells his plant in Orcus' camp to make sure Orcus knows this. Orcus takes this as his big chance and shows up, to find himself facing Demogorgon. So they get in a tussle, and their armies wear each other down, THEN Grazzt returns to mop up.

Y'see, power is NOT limited to personal power, and double dealing and trickery still apply in a chaotic setting.

 

[Darkness]

I don't think I have encountered a monster with localised spell resistance?

Holy Aura (and its equivalents) give what amounts to that (evil spells and spells cast by evil critters); maybe a creature can have something to that effect, too?

 

[S'mon]

As UK has said, to succeed in the Abyss you need both. Anyway, my real beef is that they didn't retain the 1e power gradient, or similar (1e Orcus's 120 hp was a bit low!). I can see Graz'zt being up to 2 CR below Demogorgon - that means he's only about 1/2 as powerful - but not 1/16 or 1/32. That's Titivilus territory, not Graz'zt!
And leaving all that aside, the incompatibility with DDG power levels, not ELH power levels, seems to me to be the book's real failing. At times there seems to be a quasi-Christian justification for 'weak' devils & demons. But in actual Christian 'mythology' like Milton, the pagan gods like Zeus & Odin are just minor demon lords anyway - certainly weaker than Lucifer or Mammon. A Christian-influenced campaign would logically put Asmodeus as much stronger than Ares, something like the Hercules/Xena TV series treatment of it (AFAIK - haven't seen the latter seasons of Herc)

 

[Tzarevitch]

I still don't get why Grazzt would have to be able to go toe-to-toe with everyone to be cool. Isn't it his character, tactics and mentality that make him cool? Not whether he can get in the ring with anyone. Somehow I don't think that's how they settle things in the underworld.. Demogorgon steps in and demands one-on-one with Grazz't? [Dr.Evil]Riiiiight[/Dr.Evil],

Remember, the guy has his considerable entourage with him, and other resources, so he'll give a 30th level group a run for their money if need be. I agree with WotC's decision to make these creatures almost usable with just the core rules. They'll probably work with ELHB, if you don't take the game much past 30+ level.

And UK, I wouldn't put Solar at CR 25. Maybe 22 or 23. My 19th level group defeated a solar and a planetar, once they had escaped from the first fight. CR 25 should be total overkill for 19th level group.

More importantly. There is little reason why Demogorgon would try to attack Grazz't on his home ground. Sure he could probably beat Grazz't hand to hand, but Grazz't wouldn't fight that way and he knows it. He'll use the traps and defenses that he set uo for this contingency and he'll bring the full might of Azzzagrat to bear. Why would Demogorgon or any other demon lord ever risk his immortal existance in direct battle against someone who is on a similar power level (if slightly weaker physically) and thus could possibly destroy him?

Remember that demon princes like Grazz't are immortal and have had all eternity to prepare for such controntations, especially on their home ground and against an enemy of which they are well aware. As of last I saw (I do not yet have the BoVD) Grazz't was still master of THREE layers of the Abyss. He has created plots and traps that span generations. He has also demonstrated that even gods need to tread carefully around him.

The issue of which demon prince could beat up on which other is irrelevant because such a fight wouldn't occur. Demon princes have too much to loose by fighting each other regardless of power level.

Tzarevitch

 

[Henry]

Y'know, I think we're all gonna have a really good laugh if the BoVD actually has an incorrect number on CR, compared to what powers he actually has in the writeup.

Stranger things have happened.

I don't know if Ray SIlver has TOTALLY vacated this thread yet, but does anyone have any questions BESIDES the demon princes and their CR's?

 

[The Serge]

Valmont was only an example to illustrate that the CE mentality is not limited to ravening barbarians....

Y'see, power is NOT limited to personal power, and double dealing and trickery still apply in a chaotic setting.

I agree with both sentiments, but I think that when it comes to evil in general, having the ability to maintain ones own is essential.

For CE, physical challenges will be almost constant because it's largely about personal power. Yes, some CE beings will be craftier and more subtle than others, but in the end, when Demogorgon decides enough is enough and he teleports directly to Graz'zt, all the political power in the world is inconsequntial for CE beings. There is no or limited amounts of subtlety here, and little to no hiding behind protocol. It's about how much will I lose right now if I do take a certain action. A decision not to attack has nothing or little to do with policy but with what can happen if I'm gone and my lackies start to unravel, or another enemy attacks.

In Hell, I think that the physical power of an Arch-Devil is what encourages a greater degree of subterfuge as well as protocol and social requirements. Unlike real-world Earth, in which an invalid may be king and someone rules behind a throne, why do this in an environment in which belief and power go hand in hand? Asmodeus needs to be stronger, craftier, and wiser than his rivals and lackies because it ensures that he will remain king in a violent and evil environment. The others, recognizing his physical threat, spend their time using politics to topple him, only willing to face him physically after they know he can be defeated by lawful means as well as purely physical.

If anyone's seen Lion In Winter starring Peter O'Tool and Audry Hepburn (I think), one sees Lawful at work. Henry II is king because not only is he the strongest, he's also the craftiest. He uses subterfuge, misdirection, and the law to maintain his position, hiding behind it like a shield and using its letter rather than spirit. His sons and his Queen likewise do the same, using the law. But, in the end, much of his power is physical; not even his son, Richard the Lionhearted is willing to blindly fight his father due to both reputation and recognized skill.

CE are a bunch of gangs running around, waiting for the opportunity to strike. When the do, most times, there's a stalemate until it's decided that the two leaders should meet and see who is the stronger. When that's resolved, the gang of the loser is either subsumed into the victor's gang, run-off, or destroyed. This is strictly about personal power, possibly includes tactics, but is not as intricate or strategic as LE as illustrated above.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Serge mate!

I think a web enhancement would be the way to go at this point depending on what we all ultimately see this weekend (except for Upper Krust... he never gets anything until three weeks later it seems ).

Hey! Rub it in why don't you!

 

[Celebrim]

"I can see Graz'zt being up to 2 CR below Demogorgon - that means he's only about 1/2 as powerful - but not 1/16 or 1/32..."

Oh, now I see the problem.

CR +2 DOES NOT DOES NOT DOES NOT mean twice as powerful except within a very limited range.

There is a very simple reason for this.

A 3rd level character (facing CR 3 challenges on average) is about three times as powerful as his 1st level counterpart. However, a 20th level character IS NOT twice or even three times as powerful as his 18th level counterpart. As CR increases, the relative difference between any two creatures with a difference in CR of 2 decreases. By the time we are over CR 20, the relative strength of any two creatures with different CR is roughly proportional to thier CR.

This is true whether WotC admits it officially or not.

So, if Grazz't's CR is say 24 and Demogorgon's CR is say 29, then Grazz't is only slightly less than 83% as powerful as Demogorgon. Let's call it 75%.

A CR 24 challenge is much more of a challenge for a 29th level character than a CR 1 challenge is for a 6th level character. That's the facts folks. An 11th level character is probably a match for 64 Gnolls, but a 28th level character is probably not a match for 64 18th level characters.

 

[The Serge]

Hi Serge mate!



Hey! Rub it in why don't you!

Heh heh heh.