The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[S'mon]

Yet WoTC maintain the CR system does the opposite, that +2 CR = x2 threat (and x2 XP). And if you're CR 32 you get _no_ encounter XP for a CR 24 challenge. Your use of CR is more like 'ECL' - Equivalent Class Level.
I agree there's a problem at over 20th level. Personally I like UK's divorcing of ECL & CR (see House Rules & Asgard 6). WotC's approach in the ELH by contrast is to maintain that the ratio still works - that +2 levels is always x2 challenge.

Some WoTC rules follow your route (eg the +1 level = +1 CR advancement rule). Others follow the opposite approach - eg x2 HD is only +2 CR advancement rule. It is an unholy mess, agreed. I'd have to actually have BoVD to see which approach Monte has actually taken.

 

[S'mon]

Oh, I second the vote for The Lion in Winter - great (slightly weird) film!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Psion mate!

Lets take the situation someone put up about demonic armies clashing in the abyss, and rulers popping in to confront one another person to person.

Grazzt, through his network of spies, catches wind of this. So he flees from his fortress and tells his plant in Orcus' camp to make sure Orcus knows this. Orcus takes this as his big chance and shows up, to find himself facing Demogorgon. So they get in a tussle, and their armies wear each other down, THEN Grazzt returns to mop up.

Y'see, power is NOT limited to personal power, and double dealing and trickery still apply in a chaotic setting.

Nope. Doesn't wash.

Abyssal politics is all about turf.

Abyssal factions are akin to street gangs. Whereas factions in the Hells are akin to organised crime syndicates.

In a street gang the leader is always the toughest. Members will challenge the leader if they perceive weakness.

If Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's 'turf' and Graz'zt flees that represents a loss of face. Graz'zts gang members might think 'why do I want to be with this wimp when I can throw in with Demogorgon, hes going places!'

The Demon Princes personal power naturally correlates to the amount of Abyssal real estate they own. Fraz-Urb'luu being the exception since he lost most of his territory when he was captured by Zagig (pg 102 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes) and is in the process of rebuilding his powerbase.

Demon Lords only rule over part of a layer.
Demon Princes rule at least one entire layer and probably have some Demon Lords under them (either as allies or servants).
Demon Monarchs rule multiple layers of the Abyss and have both Demon Princes and Lords under them.

The entire gang framework is central to the structure of the Abyss. While Graz'zt's 'turf' may extend to as many as fifty or more layers, most of those will come from subordinate alliances which are always shaky at best given the nature of the Abyss. Demon Lords under Graz'zts banner might throw in with Demogorgon if they thought they would get something out of it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Henry mate!

Y'know, I think we're all gonna have a really good laugh if the BoVD actually has an incorrect number on CR, compared to what powers he actually has in the writeup.

Stranger things have happened.

Agreed.

I must admit I am having trouble seeing Yeenoghu as CR22 here. Obviously I don't yet have enough of his stats to make an accurate assessment.

We know 33HD and CON 32 (or 33)

I'm assuming DR25/+5; SR35; Tanar'ri Qualities and Regeneration 5. Spell-like abilities with at least some 9th-level spells. With stats (on average) 5 less than Asmodeus?

If so, hes already more akin to CR27 (admittedly - as I perceive it that is)

Throw in class levels and some special abilities and your talking CR30.

 

[herald]

All right Uppercrust, your getting way to pendantic. Your idea of what happens in the Abyss doesn't have to be the same way as anyone elses.

Go ahead and quote any topic, any page, any source you want. The fact is everything is differant now.

Die, Vecna Die allows WOTC a blank slate canon-wise to modify anything, about anyone, about anywhere in reguards to D&D.

The Lady of Pain reorganized the multiverse. Planes of existance were destroyed, races were destroyed, blah, blah, blah. History past and present are for ever changed.

In short, WOTC pulled a Crisis on Infinite Earths story line and now are free to rewrite anything they want, and they can't be wrong. Because They can restate anything.

Now I know you can say, I reject that work or even, everyone I know rejects that work, but it doesn't matter. They can justify anything they want and you don't have a leg to stand on. They can beat this like a dead horse. (For that matter, anyone could.)

So using continuity to base your arguement on politics, statistics or anything else is pointless.

Personally, I'm glad Orcus is even in the books, He had been destroyed in 2e continuity. Now he's back. It looks like anything could happen....


>>>>Que the evil forboding music<<<<<

Why it almost like any villian could return.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

UK's vision of the abyss is pretty much the same as mine. Personal power is the final say, if any demon shows weakness of any sort then he will be fighting those below him until he shows his own power, or is dead.

 

[S'mon]

Um, UK's argument is based on the nature of Chaos & Evil, not on WotC's (lack of) multiverse Continuity!

The CE-gang LE-Syndicate analogy sounds right to me. But it's a question of what the alignments mean, demons being the epitomy of CE. You can argue that CE isn't necessarily ganglike, but that's a different question.

 

[Nightfall]

Boy are we having fun or what?! In any case I feel bad for old Greymarch there. Grey, you need another group man. SERIOUSLY.

As for what I think, well I side with Krusty, BUT I also stick with good old Scott/Grazz't, since I prefered his ORIGINAL conversions when they were CR 65 and such. But that's just me.

As for what the Abyss is like. I just know only one place. Vangal's Domain. Best damn bloodsport period!

 

[coyote6]

If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).

However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that).

Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.

And that's not really measurable by CR, AFAIK.

BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power). From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear). Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by. So being muy macho isn't sufficient by itself. You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back. Just being able to beat up anybody in your gang is not enough.

Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs. So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi herald!

All right Uppercrust, your getting way to pendantic.

I'm sorry; I must be in the wrong place I thought this was a message board.

Your idea of what happens in the Abyss doesn't have to be the same way as anyone elses.

True, but its consistent with a truly chaotic evil society model and therefore makes sense applied therein.

I don't recall forcing anyone to adopt my ideas?

Go ahead and quote any topic, any page, any source you want. The fact is everything is differant now.

Well actually the Abyss is still the reservoir of chaotic evil spirits and the ultimate embodiment of that moral (or rather immoral) creed.

So not everthing is different.

Die, Vecna Die allows WOTC a blank slate canon-wise to modify anything, about anyone, about anywhere in reguards to D&D.

The Lady of Pain reorganized the multiverse. Planes of existance were destroyed, races were destroyed, blah, blah, blah. History past and present are for ever changed.

Yet amazingly in the 3rd Ed. Manual of the Planes we pretty much return the cosmological status quo.

So none of the above made a bit of difference.

In short, WOTC pulled a Crisis on Infinite Earths story line and now are free to rewrite anything they want, and they can't be wrong. Because They can restate anything.

Of course. They have as much right to restate anything as I have to inquire why such changes were made.

Now I know you can say, I reject that work or even, everyone I know rejects that work, but it doesn't matter. They can justify anything they want and you don't have a leg to stand on. They can beat this like a dead horse. (For that matter, anyone could.)

Incorrect. They can STATE many points; whether those points are JUSTIFIED is a different matter altogether.

eg. If the Superman comic showed the titular hero eating kryptonite that may become canon - but until its explained its not justified.

So using continuity to base your arguement on politics, statistics or anything else is pointless.

Well actually I used logic and real world precedents to determine the socio-politics of the Abyss reinforced by examples from 1st Ed. cosmology (which, unlike 2nd Ed. cosmology, made sense).

Regarding statistics; continuity with Deities & Demigods is obviously a valid point, though I have stated many times I am happy with the measure of power in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Graz'zts (perceived*) relative weakness amongst his once peers disappoints on an admittedly personal level (given the seeming return to 1st Ed. continuity for the most part within 3rd Ed.), I am simply curious as to the reasoning behind it, if any?

*I won't know until I have his stats.