The Call of the World Builder

[LostSoul]

I'm disappointed that the MM won't be full of 1. inspiring beasties to menace my nameless NPC dirt farmers with, 2. that I'll have to do extra work to fit a succubus into my kingdom's plot, 3. that there's nothing in the bodak that helps me bring in a story about how he was killed hunting fiends and has returned to slaughter the family he only vaguely remembers.

1. Being inspired by beasties is a matter of taste. I've always thought most D&D monsters were ridiculous.
2. What extra work do you have to do? "She's a demon from hell. He's a mortal King." The plot kind of writes itself.
3. Is there anything in the 3e MM about that story?

What I'm interested in are the story possibilities of these critters.

It is something that, so far, most of the critters have sorely lacked. This makes me do extra work to create a story around them. No longer does an adventure with a phane or a succubus or a bodak practically write itself.

When you say "story", do you mean a D&D adventure (as you point to adventure creation later in your post), or something else?

I think a monster works in a story because it has a thematic relevance that resonates with us. That's why the succubus will always work. That hasn't been taken away, and that has never had any rules or mechanical support.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1. Being inspired by beasties is a matter of taste. I've always thought most D&D monsters were ridiculous.

Usually, inspiration comes from what they do, not what they are.

2. What extra work do you have to do? "She's a demon from hell. He's a mortal King." The plot kind of writes itself.

But since it's a D&D adventure, I'm going to need a way for the players to thwart that plot. This means rules for things the succubus can do outside of "beat the crap out of the PC's." I'll also need ideas for future adventures, ideas for how to make this unique, and something to make a succubus "seduce the king" plot different from a random high-Charisma NPC "seduce the king" plot.

In short, I'm going to need more than "She's a sexy devil who is sexy and devilish."

3. Is there anything in the 3e MM about that story?

Actually, yeah, there is something. Admittedly, I took the idea and ran with it, but the seeds were right there in the monster entry, and it didn't take up more than two sentences: one about how the bodak is undead created by the touch of "absolute evil," and one about how sometimes a bodak retains vague memories of its previous life. So bodaks come from those who fight absolute evil, and those vague memories might lead it to that tragic interaction with its old life, where its gaze will destroy the things it once lovingly gazed on.

Two sentences gave my imagination all the spur it needed to run with it. Nothing in its statblock, less than in 2e, just preserved the coolest ideas.

I think a monster works in a story because it has a thematic relevance that resonates with us. That's why the succubus will always work. That hasn't been taken away, and that has never had any rules or mechanical support.

I mean a D&D adventure, specifically.

The succubus might be able to get away with it by force of pure cultural push: most people will be familiar with the idea of "seducer devil," and plots involving them are not rare.

But for whole-cloth D&D monsters, like the phane? There's no storied history of cat-centaur living weapons who shoot AARP membership lazers.

And the same space spent giving the phane something interesting to do when it's not beating up PC's can give the succubus some new twist on its old cliche.

And yes, I do need that in a monster.

 

[Mallus]

Usually, inspiration comes from what they do, not what they are.

Sometimes it comes from how ridiculous they are cf. gelatinous cubes.

But since it's a D&D adventure, I'm going to need a way for the players to thwart that plot.

The PC's must trick the succubus into drinking from the cup the Messiah used at his last meal. This will break the enchantment and force the succubus from the kingdom. Unfortunately, since that schism pesky 20 years ago, the Grail is the possession of our chief rival to the south.

This means rules for things the succubus can do outside of "beat the crap out of the PC's."

She's boinking the King (with demon magic, even). She can arrange for a wide array of the kingdoms loyal and noble assets (knights, priests, sanctified magicians) to be deployed against the PC's.

I'll also need ideas for future adventures

That rival kingdom to the south wants their Grail back. Plus, the loyal royal forces, upon learning the King was being controlled by demon now want to usurp him, fearing that he's 1) too weak to rule 2) lost the gods mandate and 3) vulnerable.

How's that? Took me about ten seconds to conceive and an embarrassing longer amount of time to type out. Note that no previous edition of the Monster Manual was used in the creation of these plot points.

 

[WyzardWhately]

2. What extra work do you have to do? "She's a demon from hell. He's a mortal King." The plot kind of writes itself.

Together, they fight crime!

 

[I'm A Banana]

The PC's must trick the succubus into drinking from the cup the Messiah used at his last meal. This will break the enchantment and force the succubus from the kingdom. Unfortunately, since that schism pesky 20 years ago, the Grail is the possession of our chief rival to the south.
...
She's boinking the King (with demon magic, even). She can arrange for a wide array of the kingdoms loyal and noble assets (knights, priests, sanctified magicians) to be deployed against the PC's.
...
That rival kingdom to the south wants their Grail back. Plus, the loyal royal forces, upon learning the King was being controlled by demon now want to usurp him, fearing that he's 1) too weak to rule 2) lost the gods mandate and 3) vulnerable.

Sure, if the Succubus entry included that, I wouldn't be having much of a problem with this. I might have a DIFFERENT problem with what they give (because I'm nothing if not hyper-critical ), but I certainly wouldn't be complaining about monsters just looking like mobile buckets of XP.

But it doesn't.

So as interesting as that is, it doesn't leap out of the MM and tell me to use it.

I have to do more work. More preparation.

I'm quite a fantastically lazy DM, if the game doesn't GIVE me inspiration, I'll go do something that does.

How's that? Took me about ten seconds to conceive and an embarrassing longer amount of time to type out. Note that no previous edition of the Monster Manual was used in the creation of these plot points.

Yeah, I don't really want to spend that amount of time. You also didn't include many specifics -- does the grail have a specific tie to that succubus, or will it work on any devil? What kind of creature guards it? What should I use for the knights that the PC's need to fight? Should I use the rules for nonlethal combat when they're trying to not kill these innocent pawns? What happens if they do, should getting the Grail be harder?

Arguably, I don't need all of that in the MM, but I'm going to need all of that by the time I sit down and play at the table. The more the books give me, the less I need to pull out of my rear at the 11th hour.

And that's for the succubus, whose legends are so well-known that she can arguably get away with not having much pre-made plot. What about the phane? What about the phantom fungus?

I'm pretty sure 4e is capable of this. I mean, check out what they gave us for the Fire Archon, or the Formorians! That stuff is fine. It might be a bit much for every monster group, but it's exactly the kind of thing I need. Give me more than stats and "it wants to kill things."

 

[Cadfan]

I'm quite a fantastically lazy DM, if the game doesn't GIVE me inspiration, I'll go do something that does.

But what your posts pretty clearly demonstrate is that the only thing that will provide you with enough inspiration is a prewritten adventure module.

Yeah, I don't really want to spend that amount of time. You also didn't include many specifics -- does the grail have a specific tie to that succubus, or will it work on any devil? What kind of creature guards it? What should I use for the knights that the PC's need to fight? Should I use the rules for nonlethal combat when they're trying to not kill these innocent pawns? What happens if they do, should getting the Grail be harder?

Arguably, I don't need all of that in the MM, but I'm going to need all of that by the time I sit down and play at the table. The more the books give me, the less I need to pull out of my rear at the 11th hour.

Right. See, you've long since left the realm of monster manual entries. This is adventure module territory now.

You keep your adventure modules out of my monster manual, and I'll keep my... uh, monster manual out of your... uh... well, crap. That analogy just died on the vine. But the point still stands. If what you need is plot specific information like "how and why does the magical mcguffin beat the bad guy's evil plot?" then go buy an adventure module.

 

[LostSoul]

But since it's a D&D adventure, I'm going to need a way for the players to thwart that plot. This means rules for things the succubus can do outside of "beat the crap out of the PC's."

You've got that, though. It's in her skills and her defenses. Or more to the point - the PCs can be assumed to succeed unless there's some sort of adversity. The amount of adversity the succubus supplies is defined by her skills & defenses.

Instead of having to come up with a way for the players to defeat the succubus, you have rules for how the succubus can resist their attempts. You can just sit back and respond to their actions.

I'll also need ideas for future adventures, ideas for how to make this unique, and something to make a succubus "seduce the king" plot different from a random high-Charisma NPC "seduce the king" plot.

A succubus is a random high-Cha NPC. Except that, since she features in the game, she's not random, and she's an evil demon.

The statblock isn't going to make it interesting - except that it needs to provide a necessary level of adversity. Characterization and thematic resonance will make the story rock. You have to provide that. What the rules can do is enable you to do that, by not getting in the way and by making her a fit adversary.

In short, I'm going to need more than "She's a sexy devil who is sexy and devilish."

I don't! There's a lot of power in the succubus trope.

Two sentences gave my imagination all the spur it needed to run with it. Nothing in its statblock, less than in 2e, just preserved the coolest ideas.

Yeah, all you need is a line or two of fluff text in the MM entry and you're off to the races!

The succubus might be able to get away with it by force of pure cultural push: most people will be familiar with the idea of "seducer devil," and plots involving them are not rare.

But for whole-cloth D&D monsters, like the phane? There's no storied history of cat-centaur living weapons who shoot AARP membership lazers.

The phane is stupid. But: "Phanes can manipulate time, which they use to sow chaos among mortals. Occasionally they form pacts with powerful beings that share their destructive propensities." That sounds good enough to me.

Just from that, I can picture an adventure featuring a powerful noble dynasty with a reputation for doing good deeds. Now, something's changed. The head of the family is sowing chaos in a tense political situation (a war is at hand, or a King has died with no clear heir, or the change of a religious head).

The backstory is that a phane has just showed up and wants to mess with the current political situation, so it goes back in time, gives its support to an ambitious dude (better if he's a relative of a PC), and manipulates the dynasty over the years to shape it into the tool he needs right now.

Throw in a bunch of skill challenges that hinge on finding this stuff out, then a ritual to go back into the past, and there you go. You've got all you need.

I didn't look at the statblock to come up with that; I don't think I would need to.

 

[IceFractal]

The way I see it, it's fine if a monster entry says something like: "Shadow Barons create their Shadow Serfs through a ritual", and at least tells me the basics of the ritual - how long it takes and whether it requires rare components/blood sacrifice/etc.

But if the entry just says that a ritual is involved and I should make up what it is, that's not very helpful. Sure, it happens out of combat, but the effects are going to felt by the PCs. If Shadow Serfs are time-consuming/expensive to create, they'll be used sparingly. If the Shadow Baron can just pop one out every five minutes for free, they're going to be thrown at the PCs like popcorn, used to stand guard everywhere, sent to fetch drinks, and so forth.

Now I can already hear people getting ready to say "You're the DM, decide the ritual based off how many Shadow Serfs you want the PCs to fight." But that's the thing ... I don't need to decide how each monster ability works, I'm already deciding by the fact of picking a monster. Picking from all the different monsters available while also changing how those monsters work seems somewhat self-defeating.

If I already have a plot in mind that requires the abilties to work a certain way, then they'll work that way. But if I'm digging through the MM for inspiration, I want the abilities to have defined properties so I can get some ideas from them. Otherwise I'm just getting ideas from myself, and I don't need a book for that.

 

[Mallus]

So as interesting as that is, it doesn't leap out of the MM and tell me to use it.

It would if I were writing the MM. Mine would be packed with fun! (not to mention incredibly discursive and derivative...).

I'm quite a fantastically lazy DM...

Oh, me to. Just lazy in a different way.

You also didn't include many specifics -- does the grail have a specific tie to that succubus, or will it work on any devil?

Honestly, I prefer not to codify details like that until it comes up in play and a players asks. Schroedinger's DM'ing, as my friend shilsen puts it. This way, the game surprises me as much as the it does the players (+5 seconds).

What kind of creature guards it?

Assuming the PC's are good, the scenario works best if you use good, pious and noble defenders (+3 seconds).

What should I use for the knights that the PC's need to fight?

CR/EL appropriate or lower knights, clerics and wizards work nicely. These opponents should be easy for the PC's to kill (+3 seconds).

Should I use the rules for nonlethal combat when they're trying to not kill these innocent pawns?

Up to the PC's. The pawns should be weak enough to make non-lethal tactics viable (+2 seconds).

What happens if they do, should getting the Grail be harder?

Probably not. Depends on whether the PC's leave a clear trail of dead King's Men behind them (+3 seconds).

What about the phane? What about the phantom fungus?

One might need to explain the legends of the silly monsters to the players ahead of time, yes.

 

[LostSoul]

I have to do more work. More preparation.

You could come up with all of that on the fly. The PCs discover how to spoil the succubus' plans. You're not ready to end this adventure just yet, so you say, "You need to get her to drink from the holy grail!"

You know that you don't want this storyline to come to a quick end. So you think, hmm, where can I put that grail? How about down south - I haven't defined that empire, so I can use it for whatever I want. And that needs to be interesting, so there's adversity there as well - the PCs can't just walk in and take it.

Because I don't have any specifics, let's throw some southern assassins at the PCs right now. Once that's done, let's throw an environmental challenge at them. A sandstorm sounds cool. They'll have to take shelter in a burial mound full of undead.

To tie it to the grail quest, the guy buried there has some clue for the PCs on their quest! Yeah. So once they defeat him, he'll give them a boon of some sort - an old war standard. I don't know how the standard will tie into the rest of the quest, but that's not important now.

That should be enough for tonight's game.

1. does the grail have a specific tie to that succubus, or will it work on any devil? 2. What kind of creature guards it? 3. What should I use for the knights that the PC's need to fight? 4. Should I use the rules for nonlethal combat when they're trying to not kill these innocent pawns? 5. What happens if they do, should getting the Grail be harder?

1. Why not leave that up in the air until it becomes a concern?
2. A level-appropriate one that you think is interesting. Pick a "guardian" themed monster from the MM.
3. Level-appropriate NPC knight-types.
4. Sure, if there are nonlethal combat rules. If not, just say "When they hit 0 hp they're unconcious, not dead."
5. Depends on the rules, and if you want to explore that theme in the game.