John R Davis
Hero
Maybe have a separate thread on what this servitor creature would be like, if you think this sort of thing would exist in generic fantasy land.
I fear for this thread.
I fear for this thread.
D&D General The Case for Evil Orcs (Minor Rings of Power Spoilers)
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Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Not if the table doesn't have a problem with it, no. There are lots of games out there, and they don't all see "abhorrent" the way you do.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
There's no reason in the text to believe that; the fate of Orcs after death is just not discussed. My assumption is based on Orcs being originally from Elves or Men, in which case it is logical to assume they would share their fates.
It is reasonable to assume that, like the Dwarves, Orcs would be set by Mandos "in halls apart". We just don't know.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I refuse to believe that reasonable people think crappy racial stereotypes are perfectly acceptable to include in their entertainment, unless they simply don't realize what's there. Hence, speaking out against it.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
In my experience, many gamers simply don't see the game as a place where this battle needs to be waged, and just want to play.
Yaarel
He Mage
If the creature is "killable" non-person, then it cant be sapient, mustnt resemble any reallife cultures or combination thereof, and is better off without the capacity of language.
If one wants killable, fight automaton constructs.
If one wants persons, then one enters the reality of interpersonal ethics.
If one wants killable, fight automaton constructs.
If one wants persons, then one enters the reality of interpersonal ethics.
My thing is:
I'm not playing LOTR. I'm playing D&D.
So where are my evil halflings, evil gnomes, evil dragonborn, evil aasimars, and well now evil ardlings.
If D&D is built round the concept that a god(dess) can corrupt a faction of a race (Lolth) into evil, then D&D should present evil versions of every major race.
If D&D is built round the concept that a god(dess) can create an entire race as an evil, unredeemable,and non-free-will (Gruumsh), then D&D should present evil versions of every major race.
Bring me Bugeboo, Goddess of Evil Halflings and a bunch of halfling assassin statblocks, you cowards!
I'm not playing LOTR. I'm playing D&D.
So where are my evil halflings, evil gnomes, evil dragonborn, evil aasimars, and well now evil ardlings.
If D&D is built round the concept that a god(dess) can corrupt a faction of a race (Lolth) into evil, then D&D should present evil versions of every major race.
If D&D is built round the concept that a god(dess) can create an entire race as an evil, unredeemable,and non-free-will (Gruumsh), then D&D should present evil versions of every major race.
Bring me Bugeboo, Goddess of Evil Halflings and a bunch of halfling assassin statblocks, you cowards!
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John R Davis
Hero
They did in previous editions ( the evil gnome molerat god was a favoured of one of my much adored, and missed, PCs).
All races with god's, should have a "Satan" ( name may vary).
All races with god's, should have a "Satan" ( name may vary).
jgsugden
Legend
There is room in settings for both inherently aligned members of a heritage, and free willed members of the heritage. There are a number of ways to explain it in lore, but as a DM you need to be careful as you run along a potentially offensive line.
Inherently good and inherently evil mean the beings lack free will. They have no choice when it comes to the core of who they are. I have this in my game for certain types of beings, but it relegates them to being less. In a sense, these inherently good and evil are neither good nor evil, for they lack the free will to make their own choices. In a sense, they have no more alignment than a sword or a hammer. In my setting they do not trigger certain abilities that interact with souls.
For example, Gruumsh created orcs. He created them as tools of his will and gave them no free will of their own. They were very much the orcs of the Lord of the Rings (books and movie). Then the Gods discovered that worship by free willed mortals was a path to power, and the Gods set their creations free ... except some of the Gods kept some of their creations as Soul Bound enslaved minions. These orcs are monstrosities rather than humanoids and they have no choice but to do as they are commanded by the Priests of Gruumsh. Most mortals do not known, much less understand the difference. The portion of the population that unwaveringly and fanatically praise Gruumsh (because they have no choice) peer pressure much of orcish populations to stay isolated from other heritages and offer worship to Gruumsh, gaslighting the free willed beings into falling in line and exterminating those that do not follow suit.
Inherently good and inherently evil mean the beings lack free will. They have no choice when it comes to the core of who they are. I have this in my game for certain types of beings, but it relegates them to being less. In a sense, these inherently good and evil are neither good nor evil, for they lack the free will to make their own choices. In a sense, they have no more alignment than a sword or a hammer. In my setting they do not trigger certain abilities that interact with souls.
For example, Gruumsh created orcs. He created them as tools of his will and gave them no free will of their own. They were very much the orcs of the Lord of the Rings (books and movie). Then the Gods discovered that worship by free willed mortals was a path to power, and the Gods set their creations free ... except some of the Gods kept some of their creations as Soul Bound enslaved minions. These orcs are monstrosities rather than humanoids and they have no choice but to do as they are commanded by the Priests of Gruumsh. Most mortals do not known, much less understand the difference. The portion of the population that unwaveringly and fanatically praise Gruumsh (because they have no choice) peer pressure much of orcish populations to stay isolated from other heritages and offer worship to Gruumsh, gaslighting the free willed beings into falling in line and exterminating those that do not follow suit.
The ultimate irony here...
"Our table doesn't want to think about morality when we play... we just want to kill stuff and take their loot."
In any other group except gamers... if they were told the baseline premise of D&D, the PCs would be considered the evil ones. The only reason to need an "always evil" race is to find a way to justify in the minds of the players that they are in fact not being evil MFers who go around killing anyone or anything that gets in their way in their quest to find gold.
But if you're going to sit here and say you want to be able to do just that... just "play" without having to worry about "morality"... then you should probably just accept the fact that all PCs in the baseline prototypical D&D are essentially evil themselves. You are playing a bad person in a society where you will usually not get arrested for murdering anyone or anything you come across out in the wilderness, and stripping corpses of their property after the fact is perfectly fine.
Once you accept who you are and who your PC is and what you want your PC to be able to do in this prototypical style of D&D without any true consequences (other than going to 0 HP and "dying")... you don't need an "Always Evil" servitor race in the game anymore. Because trying to reflect your evil with another evil is unnecessary.
"Our table doesn't want to think about morality when we play... we just want to kill stuff and take their loot."
In any other group except gamers... if they were told the baseline premise of D&D, the PCs would be considered the evil ones. The only reason to need an "always evil" race is to find a way to justify in the minds of the players that they are in fact not being evil MFers who go around killing anyone or anything that gets in their way in their quest to find gold.
But if you're going to sit here and say you want to be able to do just that... just "play" without having to worry about "morality"... then you should probably just accept the fact that all PCs in the baseline prototypical D&D are essentially evil themselves. You are playing a bad person in a society where you will usually not get arrested for murdering anyone or anything you come across out in the wilderness, and stripping corpses of their property after the fact is perfectly fine.
Once you accept who you are and who your PC is and what you want your PC to be able to do in this prototypical style of D&D without any true consequences (other than going to 0 HP and "dying")... you don't need an "Always Evil" servitor race in the game anymore. Because trying to reflect your evil with another evil is unnecessary.
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