D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Mort]

Which brings us back to the start: 5e can't do high level ADVENTURES. It might be able to do a high level sandbox campaign, but an actual adventure - something WotC could print in a book for example, just doesn't work.

Sure it can, as long as the writers realize that high level adventures shouldn't just be low level adventures with the numbers amped up.

I've run high level adventures a few times and have found the biggest problem isn't the adventure itself but the fact that most players aren't really ready for what high level characters bring to the table (specifically when they want to START at high level).

 

[the Jester]

I'll start by saying that 3e, especially the 3.5-era Dungeon Magazine, was probably the high point for high level adventure design. And it was so good because the 3e designers recognized that high level pcs have the ability to basically know or find out anything, go anywhere, and deal with any threat. So instead of writing adventures with ways to stymie these abilities in mind, they wrote adventures that required them.

So, require information they don't have. They can get it. Even if the party doesn't have a high powered diviner on board, by the time they are 15th level, they have probably made an ally that can do such divinations for them. If they haven't, they can do so now, or go to the expensive sage, or conduct research for months, or whatever; don't worry about how they will do it, just trust that they will figure out a way.

Put adventures in far-flung locations, and don't worry about how they're getting there. If they can't teleport or transport via plants or something, they'll hire someone to teleport the party, find some big flying mount or airship, something. They can do it.

The nature of what challenges high level pcs is different. Because they can kill almost anything, one option is to use adversaries and situations that can't just be killed. Instead of a BBEG, maybe the party needs to cure a city of a plague. Maybe they need to raise a baby roc to adulthood. Maybe the foe is a political movement the party is opposed to, and stopping it requires convincing a large number of nobles spread over a large area, most of whom are friendly to the party, to change one of their fundamental beliefs. Maybe a town is cursed with poor harvests, and the party has the find a way to break the curse.

When it comes to combat, really pull out the stops. Don't worry about how the party will defeat a given foe; trust them to be able to pull off almost anything. Encounter balance? That's for lower levels.

Again, look at some of the high level 3e/3.5e Dungeon adventures, if you have access to them. They're pretty great, and often have really cool examples of high level adventure writing.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It can.

5e cant do high level dungeon style adventures.

Players sign up for Dungeons & Dragons. Dungeon style adventures are what they want. Preferably with dragons in them. If they wanted Politics & Principalities they would be playing a different game.

 

[J-H]

It can.

5e cant do high level dungeon style adventures.

It can, but it requires more prep and forethought. Wards against teleportation and scrying, Guards and Wards, other reasons to not just leave the dungeon at will.

Recent-ish dungeons my high level party have done include:
-An old silver mine, now deliberately baited with small amounts of "stuff" (38gp; 3 +1 arrows) on the first level, and easy foes. Lower levels featured Intellect Devourers hiding, and anyone who got down to the bottom level would get a group of Mind Flayers + minions teleporting in behind them. The 18th level party Noped out and ran away when the 8 INT paladin was reduced to a drooling dead weight because he went over and looked in a crevice to see what was moving, then failed his INT save. Caveat: Nobody's been using divination stuff.

-A wizard's old vacation home. Lots of Guards and Wards caused fog, traps involving multiple Symbol spells, etc. We were a bit worried that someone might get killed when he got locked in a room with two Death symbols and an Insanity symbol while someone else was Suggested to go fight an Illusory dragon, but they made it out.

-An abandoned (broken) elven research lab focusing on time travel. using wardstones (top floor) their souls and bodies were protected from aging as they descended...time ran faster at each level, so by the time they hit the bottom, they'd advanced about 1500 years in time, had some 'barely heard' Sending spells come in from people wondering why they'd been abandoned, etc... then they reached the level where the ogre death knight who had "just" conquered the place (10,000 years ago) was still dealing with the broken crystal and the blood was still running out of the dead wizards. They killed him and the invisible zombie beholders generating overlapping antimagic fields, and then went back up to the top, where their stones re-synced and they rejoined the main timeline.
They thought about leaving at one point, but their wardstones started buzzing and shrieking as they approached the entry without re-syncing them with the rune field.

 

[the Jester]

It can.

5e cant do high level dungeon style adventures.

It can, but you have to design the dungeon with high level pcs in mind. It can't be your old adapted natural cave with a few monsters in it and really hit. Instead, you need to make it special and, well, high level. Magic it up. Give it some exotic traits: maybe the air is filled with a gas that makes it hard to complete a rest, maybe it has a distortion field that causes creatures that teleport in (or into!) the dungeon to be stunned for a round, maybe it is gigantic and requires extensive exploration or scrying to plumb the depths of.

Use extreme or magical terrain features. Perhaps a vein of blood rock runs through a chamber, and anyone that is bloodied that starts its turn within 10' of the rock must make an attack against a random creature within its reach. Maybe the pcs have to plunge into a burning coal mine, dealing with not just heat but smoke.

And you need to give them a reason to be in the dungeon. Maybe they're looking for someone or something that they can't scry or teleport to (mind blanked, perhaps?). Perhaps they have to clean out the dungeon off some kind of infestation that is spreading onto the surface and into the Underdark. It might be that the sacred regalia they need to proclaim a pc king is lost in the dungeon. There could be lost information they need somewhere in the treasure of the monsters that dwell in it. Something- high level pcs very seldom simply go dungeoneering for the sake of it.

 

[Reynard]

Passwall makes doors and walls redundant.

Is that the best use of that spell slot, though?

 

[Reynard]

15th level parties should be dealing with existential threats to the entire realm. These are people that can go toe to toe with primal Demon Lords and expect to win. Think planar travel, artifacts and similar things being features, with the fate of the world in the PCs hands.

This is beyond the scope of this discussion, besides being unnecessary. It doesn't matter whether the adventures are deeply personal in nature or about existential threats to the planet, at 17th level they still present the same design challenges.

Someone upthread said that you need to embrace teleportation and divination. I agree and would expand it to say that high level adventures should assume the use of powerful magics. The key is making sure they aren't prescribed. The adventure takes place on a flying island? Good. DON'T tell the GM how the PCs are supposed to get up there. They're Epic tier characters. they'll find a way.

 

[Reynard]

It can.

5e cant do high level dungeon style adventures.

Why not? What are the nigh-insurmountable design challenges for a 17th level dungeon? What are some potential solutions to those challenges?

 

[dave2008]

5e cant do high level dungeon style adventures.

Why not? I mean I wouldn't do a lot of it, but I don't see why it couldn't work.

 

[aco175]

For example, if Act 1 of the adventure culminates with the PCs having to get permission from a powerful fey ruler to use a portal in their domain in the Feywild, the module should not prescribe A solution to that problem. It should present the scenario in such a way that upon reading it, the GM has a good idea of what the fey ruler's motivation is and what sorts of things would get the PCs on their side. It could certainly list some possible checks and DCs or useful spells, but not as definite methods.

I think a lot of DMs looking for a module want to have the problem and solution given to them. While a lot of the solutions may be flexible, they also need to have guidelines for what the writer was thinking. I'm not sure I would buy an adventure that did not offer at least one solution for the problems.

I definitely think that no adventure, high or low, should have to take into account a specific class or class ability. If it requires a spell of some sort, then that should be covered by an appropriate NPC or magical item. For instance, if the party needs to go from the prime plane to the plane of fire, something in the adventure should provide that.

I do think that things like skill DCs should be included, more than likely the players will have other ways of getting past a skill DC, but as a baseline, a skill DC should be listed, perhaps just a DC, let the players come up with appropriate skills.

I like this and tend to follow the advice. If the PCs need the passwall spell to get into the room, then one should be available somewhere in the dungeon. Although this may be less of an issue at higher levels. Perhaps part of the challenge means teleporting back to town to get a scroll or mage henchman to cast it.

A High Level Adventure should be more complex, not have an obvious direct thing to do, and a simple ending. Some more like The Elves and Dwarf kingdoms are on the brink of war....can the characters...somehow..bring peace to the land? See there is no easy path here: no maguffin to find, no monster to kill. In a lot of ways, this type of adventure would be more of a Sourcebook about an area, not just a collection of encounters and monsters.

Less dungeon-crawl, more save the kingdom. I agree that high level should have a more altruistic purpose than just get gold or magic, There should also be some evil force behind the problem. I think there should be some concrete steps that get solved to complete the objectives. An idea like this may be more a long-term adventure instead of a simple thing like a spaceship full of gith landed and started killing everyone.

Taking inspiration from 13th Age, when the party comes across a challenge they can curbstomp with no/minimal use of resources I just do a montage around the table of each player describing one cool thing their character did to overcome the foes. Takes very little time, makes them feel cool.

I like this and hope to use the idea if my group ever gets to high level without wanting to start a new campaign. The idea that all the goblins disappear once the PCs are level 5 or giants once the PCs are level 10 breaks belief and throwing something like this may move things along and allow for players to improv some.