D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Reynard]

It seems to be an accepted fact that creating pre-designed adventures for high (15+) level characters is difficult.

I would like to accept that argument but with the caveats that a) "difficult" does not mean "impossible" and b) that difficulty is a technical problem that can be solved and is not a systemic problem.

As such I would like to discuss in a serious way what those technical challenges are and how they can be addressed. What I don't want to do is argue about whether the basic premise is true. Nor do I want to discuss the issues of "fluff" around high level adventures -- that is we won't be talking about whether the 18th level characters would be better off doing something else that adventuring.

Remember, the primary goals are to identify problems and discuss potential solutions.

The first thing to came to my mind is a problem that is true for all published adventures but definitely exacerbated at high levels: the designer does not know the composition of the party.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Even moreso than with other adventures, high level adventures need to be playtested. A lot. With diverse groups.

And the notion of tightly scripted campaigns needs to be replaced at high levels with generalized outlines with NPC goals and the understanding that things will change on the fly as the NPCs collide with the PCs. Instead of trying to script out every beat, just acknowledge that the NPCs (and DM) will have to adapt on the fly.

 

[Reynard]

Even moreso than with other adventures, high level adventures need to be playtested. A lot. With diverse groups.

Agreed.

And the notion of tightly scripted campaigns needs to be replaced at high levels with generalized outlines with NPC goals and the understanding that things will change on the fly as the NPC collide with the PCs. Instead of trying to script out every beat, just acknowledge that the NPCs (and DM) will have to adapt on the fly.

I think all adventures should be designed this way.

 

[Reynard]

Specifically on the subject of not knowing what the party looks like:

High level spell casters definitely change the game. If you have a party that is a monk, a barbarian, a bard and a rogue, that is going to present entirely different design challenges than a party that has a wizard, a cleric, a ranger and a warlock.

I think the design solution for this is to rely on situations and problems with multiple routes to success for the players, rather than specific "puzzles" that need specific solutions (in the form of spells or whatever).

For example, if Act 1 of the adventure culminates with the PCs having to get permission from a powerful fey ruler to use a portal in their domain in the Feywild, the module should not prescribe A solution to that problem. It should present the scenario in such a way that upon reading it, the GM has a good idea of what the fey ruler's motivation is and what sorts of things would get the PCs on their side. It could certainly list some possible checks and DCs or useful spells, but not as definite methods.

 

[Reynard]

Another design difficulty I can think of for high level adventures is that it is very difficult to wear down high level character resources, and high level characters going Nova is an order of magnitude more disruptive to CR than low or mid level characters going Nova.

 

[iserith]

Solve for forcecage and you're almost entirely there.

 

[Reynard]

Solve for forcecage and you're almost entirely there.

As such I would like to discuss in a serious way what those technical challenges are and how they can be addressed.

 

[Minigiant]

It's less that it's difficult as much as high level D&D is different.

You can't use the same types of challenges to high level characters as they have enough resources to

1. use slightly powerful abilities nearly at will
2. use moderately powerful abilities often
3. use incredibly powerful abilities at all

You can't do resource attrition grinds and simple obstacles at high levels.

 

[J-H]

I'm wrapping up a high level (13-20+) hexcrawl adventure right now. It's ready to go on the DM's Guild as soon as I finish about another 120 pages of editing (bestiary, hex entries, items, page spacing, etc. Bleh).

It has gone pretty well.
-The 5-8 encounter adventuring day DEFINITELY breaks down. I'm seeing one big fight every couple of in-game weeks. Those in-game fights are big and involve multiple enemies with 7th-9th level spells, and time pressure where the party has 6-8 rounds before reinforcements flood the area. Power Word Kill, Finger of Death, Prismatic Wall, Earthquake, etc. are all on the table. Usually I get 1-3 PCs down to 0hp during these fights, but they don't die.
-Strategic initiative matters. Scrying, attacking the PCs when they aren't ready, and evading enemy patrols to avoid 500 enemies jumping the party are all big things.
-Having a pre-populated area with multiple viable goals at any given time means the players can choose "whatever" and all I have to do is look up the right page(s).
-Not every random encounter has to challenge the party. The 19th level monk has made notes of a giant honey tree (lots of bees) for a return trip. As a combat encounter, it'd be challenging for maybe...2nd level players?
-In fact, most things aren't going to seriously exercise the players and put their characters in danger. Instead of "is what's around the corner going to kill me?" it has become "How do we provide evidence to get the Giants on-side so that when we go up against a god's avatar, we're bringing two polities, a kraken, and a nascent god-sword to the fight?" along with "Do we want to try to trap these CR 5 carnivores and try to let 100 of them loose in the enemy city? If so, how?"

Here's the text I have written up on the topic in my "How to run the campaign" chapter:

High level D&D characters, particularly spellcasters, have the ability to survive almost anything, deal massive amounts of damage, and reshape the battlefield in a round or two. At 5th level, a Fireball at the wrong time can cause a TPK. At 15th level, a DEX-heavy party can shrug off 3 Fireballs and a Prismatic Spray with no ill effects.

In combat, this means that the DM is free to throw lots of firepower at the PCs, and trust that they will be able to dismantle it in a few rounds. Reviewing the included Campaign Log will show a typical party handle an invisible ancient dragon with ease, teleport to an enemy airship and wipe out its crew, drop into an enemy temple and kill the high priest, desecrate the altar, then leave, or even split up to conduct hit-and-run raids with a Hasted Monk who can literally outrun the enemy. This may seem like a challenge to DM, but the DM’s job is not to conduct the party’s strategy or tactics – simply to make a good effort at defeating them with the resources on hand. Sometimes, the enemy will scare the PCs or chase them off. Sometimes, the players will get good rolls and will cut through 60 CR worth of opponents like a +3 Flaming Dagger versus warm butter.

Out of combat, high level players have access to extreme strategic mobility, including Scrying, Teleport, and Transport Via Plants. This may seem hard to plan for, but that’s the advantage of a large, pre-populated map. The Aarocokra also have the benefit of a Scrying chamber at every temple, and can be assumed to have good, but not perfect, ability to track the party unless or until Scrying is blocked. The players again do most of the work; the DM simply decides when the players should be attacked, what reasonable steps the enemy is taking in the background, and what additional reinforcements have been dispatched to temples.

The hardest part, in the author’s experience, is choosing quickly what actions enemy should take in large battles (10+ foes vs. the party). Spell selections presented in the Bestiary are typically abbreviated and categorized to help; beyond this – pick a few default actions and use those. Low-level divine casters can’t go wrong with Sacred Flame or Guiding Bolt, and high level casters are likely to use their high-level spells first.

The players do not see what happens behind the screen. Sometimes the DM will forget a creature’s special abilities or make sub-optimal choices. Most of the time, the players will never even know, and that’s okay.

 

[Reynard]

It's less that it's difficult as much as high level D&D is different.

You can't use the same types of challenges to high level characters as they have enough resources to

1. use slightly powerful abilities nearly at will
2. use moderately powerful abilities often
3. use incredibly powerful abilities at all

You can't do resource attrition grinds and simple obstacles at high levels.

So what is the solution to this particular design problem?

One simple solution is to not bother and assume that the party will expend their most powerful abilities in any given encounter (with stakes). @J-H seems to support this in their post. It makes some sense: lots of GMs don't worry about attrition no matter the level.

Alternatively, if the players know that the climax of the adventure will require their most powerful abilities and they also know that they will not be afforded a rest, they will have to strategically deploy their abilities. This is a singular solution, though -- you can't use it as a general solution to high level adventures.

 

[cbwjm]

Specifically on the subject of not knowing what the party looks like:

High level spell casters definitely change the game. If you have a party that is a monk, a barbarian, a bard and a rogue, that is going to present entirely different design challenges than a party that has a wizard, a cleric, a ranger and a warlock.

I think the design solution for this is to rely on situations and problems with multiple routes to success for the players, rather than specific "puzzles" that need specific solutions (in the form of spells or whatever).

For example, if Act 1 of the adventure culminates with the PCs having to get permission from a powerful fey ruler to use a portal in their domain in the Feywild, the module should not prescribe A solution to that problem. It should present the scenario in such a way that upon reading it, the GM has a good idea of what the fey ruler's motivation is and what sorts of things would get the PCs on their side. It could certainly list some possible checks and DCs or useful spells, but not as definite methods.

I definitely think that no adventure, high or low, should have to take into account a specific class or class ability. If it requires a spell of some sort, then that should be covered by an appropriate NPC or magical item. For instance, if the party needs to go from the prime plane to the plane of fire, something in the adventure should provide that.

I do think that things like skill DCs should be included, more than likely the players will have other ways of getting past a skill DC, but as a baseline, a skill DC should be listed, perhaps just a DC, let the players come up with appropriate skills.

 

[bloodtide]

One of the first big things to do for a high level adventure is to break away from the classic combat filled simple and direct quest. A typical adventure gives a problem ("The Red Dragon will attack in week"), give an obvious direct Macguffin ("The Lance of Red Dragon Slaying") lost in some monster filled ruins, and a direct, simple end goal ("Get the Lance, Kill the Dragon").

A High Level Adventure should be more complex, not have an obvious direct thing to do, and a simple ending. Some more like The Elves and Dwarf kingdoms are on the brink of war....can the characters...somehow..bring peace to the land? See there is no easy path here: no maguffin to find, no monster to kill. In a lot of ways, this type of adventure would be more of a Sourcebook about an area, not just a collection of encounters and monsters.

The writer does not need to know the characters, if they keep the abilities in check. If the 15th level Evil Lord has an Arcane Lock on the door to the evil castle....and nothing else....then it will be a cakewalk for any group of 15th ish level characters. But if the castle is on a demi plane, out of phaze, out of time, teleporting randomly or on the back of a giant turtle, then things get interesting.

Really, the sort of thing I start doing at level 1 : raise the fantasy level to 11. Just drop the "like the dirt and mud of Earth in 1100". The opening to the tower is covered by a blob of flesh: how do they get past that? The spell knock has no effect on a blob and there is no lock to pick.....

It's not about "blocking" the spellcasters, but more making them think.....

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's less that it's difficult as much as high level D&D is different.

You can't use the same types of challenges to high level characters as they have enough resources to

1. use slightly powerful abilities nearly at will
2. use moderately powerful abilities often
3. use incredibly powerful abilities at all

You can't do resource attrition grinds and simple obstacles at high levels.

Not having gotten to these levels in my campaign yet (although I'm getting there), I suggest approaching this issue the way good Superman writers have.

Bad Superman writers just throw someone bigger and stronger at Superman, which has diminishing returns, diminishes Superman and is, frankly, boring.

Good Superman writers know that there are a lot of problems that Superman can't punch. Obviously, you give him asteroids and giant robots and such to fight, because that stuff is awesome and you want to see Superman do that stuff, but the ultimate problem has to be solved in ways other than brute force.

A high-level D&D adventure shouldn't be one where it's just a matter of throwing enough Power Words and Disintegrates around. That should be the stuff you do on the way to the finale, not the finale itself.

 

[Minigiant]

So what is the solution to this particular design problem?

Stop using basic dungeons.

If you aren't going to force... Force... FORCE... FORCE 10 draining encounters a day.. don't bother.

One simple solution is to not bother and assume that the party will expend their most powerful abilities in any given encounter (with stakes). @J-H seems to support this in their post. It makes some sense: lots of GMs don't worry about attrition no matter the level.

Yup like I said before. Force Attrition or Don't Bother,

Alternatively, if the players know that the climax of the adventure will require their most powerful abilities and they also know that they will not be afforded a rest, they will have to strategically deploy their abilities. This is a singular solution, though -- you can't use it as a general solution to high level adventures.

If there is every a time for a time crunch,high level is it because it makes sense. Just like the PCs, the NPCs and Enemies are more powerful and have more resources. And they can force-multiply this with time.

Every day, the caster's spells are geared to combat.
Every day, the warrior collects noncombat items.
Every day, minions are hired and are summoned.
Every day, areas are locked down to force encounters.
Every day, allies are turned.
Every day, innocents and neutrals are slain.
Every day, enemies team up.

 

[Reynard]

Just to reiterate, this thread is about design problems and solutions. I don't want it to get bogged down into "fuzzy" discussions about what is an appropriate kind of adventure for high level characters. High levels characters can go on a dungeon adventure or a McGuffin Quest or any of the other types of adventures other tier characters go on. But high level play presents specific design problems -- that is the purpose here.

 

[J-H]

Just to reiterate, this thread is about design problems and solutions. I don't want it to get bogged down into "fuzzy" discussions about what is an appropriate kind of adventure for high level characters. High levels characters can go on a dungeon adventure or a McGuffin Quest or any of the other types of adventures other tier characters go on. But high level play presents specific design problems -- that is the purpose here.

"What kind of adventure should we design?" seems relevant to "How do we design a good adventure for high level characters?"
If I rephrase your question as "How do you design a dungeon or set of adventures so they are actually challenging and fun for high level characters?" would that be more accurate?

If so, my notes above are still my thoughts on it plus have opportunities for meaningful progression (diplomacy, city-building, noble titles, war, etc.). Individual dungeons or encounter areas should be thematically appropriate. 10 sessions from now, when you say "X" you want your players to remember X.... not "zombie filled pit number 10."

Examples:
The Darkness/necromancy temple is full of magical shadow except for a narrow path - the enemies there can see, but the party can't without expending resources or abilities. The shadow jaguars there can step through the dozens of mirrors scattered around with just 5' of movement. The altar casts Finger of Death once per round at the closest enemy, unless someone's actively interfering with it (god-slaying sword stabbed in it, Channeling Divinity at it, etc.)

The storm god temple is surrounded by a lot of water, open to the air above, and has a driving rainstorm going by round 2 that reduces visibility to 30', with lightning striking a large area every round and the altar casting an 8th-level Ice Storm AOE at the closest group of enemies.

The earth temple is a giant cube of rock, with the altar at the bottom center. Every round, the altar generates cracks under people that are 1d10x10' deep, Dex or fall in. The previous cracks slam shut, trapping people underground if they fail, while there's also a giant devouring earth monster that bites a lot and does some other nasty stuff...and the high priestess can bring it back at half health with an action.

Note that with all 3 of those, there are objectives (altars), hostile environmental conditions, as well as enemies. No big flat open boring areas.

 

[pogre]

Just to reiterate, this thread is about design problems and solutions. I don't want it to get bogged down into "fuzzy" discussions about what is an appropriate kind of adventure for high level characters. High levels characters can go on a dungeon adventure or a McGuffin Quest or any of the other types of adventures other tier characters go on. But high level play presents specific design problems -- that is the purpose here.

I hope I am not violating the framework you have in mind, but I do think these things are related. I have run a lot of high level D&D. One of the challenges (difficulties) is threatening the PCs in a meaningful way. One solution I have found is forcing the PCs to protect a more vulnerable target. I recognize this is a type of adventure, but it really does overcome one of the challenges.

 

[Flamestrike]

It seems to be an accepted fact that creating pre-designed adventures for high (15+) level characters is difficult.

It's dead easy once you get used to the shenanigans a high level Party can do.

Problem is most DM's rage quit at around 5th-7th level, and few campaigns get past this point. Meaning few DMs have experience DMing high level PCs and their shenanigans.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen a DM do a one shot for high level PCs, and design an adventure that basically resembles one for 4th level PCs, and then sit there flabbergasted by the ease in which the PCs smash it.

Textbook example is a DM who designed an adventure for 15th level PCs in a tower. Each level was a special encounter, with the PCs advancing up the tower, and the BBEG at the top level.

First the PCs disintegrated the base of the tower. The panicked DM ruled 'the tower is immune to disintegration'. Then they Earthquaked the tower. DM hastily ruled the tower 'has magic that stops it from being toppled'. Then they flew to the top of the tower, bypassing all the encounters, used divination to scy inside the top level (the DM ruled it has lead lining so cant be divined or scryed) before eventually casting Passwall to enter the top level (after buffing) and annihilated the BBEG via a Nova strike.

So many DMs are just unfamiliar with what high level PC's can do. They wind up running 'mundane' challenges, for a bunch of heroes with abilities on par with the Avengers.

PCs with Avengers like powers, deserve Avengers level threats and challenges.

 

[J-H]

PCs with Avengers like powers, deserve Avengers level threats and challenges.

One of my players has been comparing his character to the Avengers for a while and calls it a superhero campaign.
He has boots that let him do a hero-style landing from altitude and take no damage (they do AOE damage in a small AOE instead). He has an adamantium plated skeleton, and an implanted troll heart, and implanted poison glands in his wrists, and I think he went for one other mod from the Fleshcrafter, but don't recall what. They traveled most of the way around the map to locate adamantium and a source of troll hearts. He won a bow in an archery contest (2nd prize) that doubled his range, then took Sharpshooter. And he's a Kensei monk, so he runs really fast and can run up and down walls and across water, and has great saves. He's Hawkeye/Captain America/Wolverine with a bit of the Flash.

He keeps asking for some sort of throwable returning battle disc for some reason

He took his character, gave it a few Fiendish boosts, and used it as a BBEG boss for his campaign of 14th-ish level characters. Fast, long ranged damage, hard to pin down, purple worm poison, etc. He says the only reason it wasn't close to a TPK was the diviner saying "No, you didn't pass that save against Hold Monster."

The Samurai can catch incoming ray attacks on his sword, and then discharge them into the next enemy hit. If he ever goes down to 0, he gets to take a full turn, action surge, and attack 8 more times.

The Paladin has teleported onto dragon-back and then started smiting the dragon while riding it.

The Warlock has a book that lets him name a spell...any spell...and then cast it the next turn, with a recharge rate of 1 day per spell level. He likes to use True Polymorph to turn into an adult dragon for fights now. Eventually he'll figure out that he can use the book for Shapechange so that he's a Warlock adult dragon.

Embrace the Awesome. Have fun with it... and don't worry about how they will defeat tough fights.

 

[Minigiant]

Just to reiterate, this thread is about design problems and solutions. I don't want it to get bogged down into "fuzzy" discussions about what is an appropriate kind of adventure for high level characters. High levels characters can go on a dungeon adventure or a McGuffin Quest or any of the other types of adventures other tier characters go on. But high level play presents specific design problems -- that is the purpose here.

No they can't...well don't. Unless you actively ban, restrict, or counter their high level abilities and equipment.
High level Tier 4 PCs don't go on the same type of adventures as Lower level tier 1 & 2 ones do. Unless they want to.

Tier 4 is Justice Justice/Avengers power. They don't dungeon adventure to the McGuffin. They just go there are deal with the immediate obstacle of why they don't already have it already (usually, its owner or guardian).

Once a powerful being or object becomes known to be that powerful, it enters the Dance of Control. Where Everyone of Power is watching it, watching other people watching it, trying to keep others from watching it, and weighting how much it costs to get, control, hide or destroy it.

D&D cheats by locking down the top tiers of power. Gods can't come down and get things themselves. Greater nondeity powers and demigods often can't leave their plane easily.

That leaves all the powerful henchmen. And that's where Tier 4 D&D plays best as: Elite Henchman Faction Madness.