The Changing Game

[malraux]

The DMG would be a decent place for this sort of thing. Next to all the other plot advice and guidelines.

NOT mucking up the actual character classes.

Although owning and operating a castle probably has enough material in it to justify an entire book.

Paragon paths, epic destinies, as well as their associated feats, plus rules on followers, possible organizations, etc, could easily fill a sourcebook.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Does your FLGS have a good RPG collection? Does it have a good supply of WOTC books? A good deal of 3PP? Does it carrry stuff from Paizo, Necromancer or Goodman Games? Did you ever really look through it? How many books and adventures are there are that truely focused on killing things and taking there stuff? Count that number and write it down. Now count how many books there are that are about building and running your own kingdom. How many did you find? Compare the first number to the second number. Intresting result, no?

Will your FLGS special order books for you? Do you think they'll be able to find a book about building/running a kingdom to order for you? If they do have one, can you check what year it was made?

Well, if it's any consulation, there is a chance that a future DMG will contain information on this type of thing. If all else fails, you can always search around the internet for stuff. If you find anything cool, please be sure to share the link.

 

[Blizzardb]

WOTC stated that a design goal was to make certain combat matters "the same" throughout the whole game.

"Certain combat matters" - yes. "The game is the same at level 1 and level 30" - no.

 

[Reynard]

"Certain combat matters" - yes. "The game is the same at level 1 and level 30" - no.

You'd be hard pressed to find anything in the core that shows a substantive change in play between 1st and 30th level, but if you are going to assert the opposite I invite you to share such finds.

 

[Mallus]

You'd be hard pressed to find anything in the core that shows a substantive change in play between 1st and 30th level, but if you are going to assert the opposite I invite you to share such finds.

Two things...

1) the "substantive change in play" comes from the adventures the characters go on. Unless, of course, you think the story of a daring raid into a cellar to kill a rat is the same as a daring raid into Hell to kill Asmodeus...

2) While several older editions of the game offered some support for political/ builder sim-like gameplay at higher levels, this does not mean such play was widely engaged in, or represented the principal campaign activities. My experience is that most campaigns did not morph into kingdom-running exercises at "name level", they just went into deeper, deadlier dungeons. Look at all the famous 1e modules for name level and higher characters: Against the Giants, Vault of the Drow, Demonweb Pits, Tomb of Horrors. These modules don't reflect a substantive change in play style occurring. Quite the opposite.

On the other hand, I've played in games that veered away from dungeon crawling almost from the start, becoming exercises in intrigue and fantasy nation building. This had nothing to do with rules and everything to do with the inclinations of the players and DM.

 

[malraux]

You'd be hard pressed to find anything in the core that shows a substantive change in play between 1st and 30th level, but if you are going to assert the opposite I invite you to share such finds.

Flight powers? Wide area of effect powers? Death as a speed bump?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Flight powers? Wide area of effect powers? Death as a speed bump?

Aside from all the new flashy effects you can learn for combat, rituals also can transform the game at this point.

Paragon Tier offers Passwall can make walls immaterial (literally! ), Shadow Walk and Linked Portal offer your faster ways to travel, greatly expanding the area covered by your parties exploration and the plots you can offer them.
Consult Mystical Sages provides you with new sources for information.
And finally, Planar Portal open ups an entire new place you can visit on your own decision.

Epic Tier has Loremasters Bargain and Voice of Fate as strong information sources, and Observe creature for spying out individuals. Finally, True Portal gives you a way to go nearly everywhere you want.

 

[Reynard]

Aside from all the new flashy effects you can learn for combat, rituals also can transform the game at this point.

Paragon Tier offers Passwall can make walls immaterial (literally! ), Shadow Walk and Linked Portal offer your faster ways to travel, greatly expanding the area covered by your parties exploration and the plots you can offer them.
Consult Mystical Sages provides you with new sources for information.
And finally, Planar Portal open ups an entire new place you can visit on your own decision.

Epic Tier has Loremasters Bargain and Voice of Fate as strong information sources, and Observe creature for spying out individuals. Finally, True Portal gives you a way to go nearly everywhere you want.

None of these things change play. They change players' tactics and alter the scope and scale of adventures, but play is still, as described in the DMG, going into dangerous locales (dungeons), defeating enemies in mortal combat (killing things), and acquiring forgotten relics (taking its stuff). As made clear by my OP, I am talking about a change in the actual play of the game, of the goals of the players and the systems and methods of achieving those goals.

 

[Jack7]

As made clear by my OP, I am talking about a change in the actual play of the game, of the goals of the players and the systems and methods of achieving those goals.

I suspect we're talkin Merlins and Mr. Wizards here.

One side says, "I'm talking magic," and the other side says, "I heard ya already, you're talkin mechanics!"

 

[Remathilis]

Does your FLGS have a good RPG collection? Does it have a good supply of WOTC books? A good deal of 3PP? Does it carrry stuff from Paizo, Necromancer or Goodman Games? Did you ever really look through it? How many books and adventures are there are that truely focused on killing things and taking there stuff? Count that number and write it down. Now count how many books there are that are about building and running your own kingdom. How many did you find? Compare the first number to the second number. Intresting result, no?

While several older editions of the game offered some support for political/ builder sim-like gameplay at higher levels, this does not mean such play was widely engaged in, or represented the principal campaign activities. My experience is that most campaigns did not morph into kingdom-running exercises at "name level", they just went into deeper, deadlier dungeons. Look at all the famous 1e modules for name level and higher characters: Against the Giants, Vault of the Drow, Demonweb Pits, Tomb of Horrors. These modules don't reflect a substantive change in play style occurring. Quite the opposite.

This.

If I have something to add, its this. Check out ANY Dragon adventure path (Shackled City, Age of Worms, etc). See any nation building? Any strategic use of troops? Complex diplomatic negotiations? Nope. 1-20 all dungeons.

I like the idea of nationbuilding being a seperate element from leveling and such (You're now 9th level! Here is your army!) because the heart of D&D has always leaned toward "Dungeons Exploration" and not "Fiefdom management."

I wonder though, if this has something to do with the game slow-down past 12th level in AD&D games (Your PC retires to rule his lands. roll 4d6).