The Chump to God model

[Dausuul]

How many folks got annoyed with Star Trek about how episodic it all was, how the characters didn't change, and everything was wrapped up in a bow at the end of the piece? While many of those inspirational stories are cool, I am not sure their overall story structure is what makes them cool, and may not be the part of them a DM of a long-running campaign wants to emulate.

Character development is a totally separate issue. Look at "Babylon 5," or "Battlestar Galactica," or "Supernatural." Plenty of character development, well-developed story arcs, but not much power gain over the course of the series. (Unless you count the Sam and Ruby subplot in season 4 of "Supernatural," but given how that ended... yeah.)

In fact, the only TV series I can think of offhand that does have dramatic power gains is "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." And even there, out of three main characters, the only one who really skyrockets up the power scale is Willow. Buffy and Xander are both appreciably stronger by the end than they were at the beginning, but it's incremental rather than transformative. I would characterize Xander as "chump to dude" and Buffy as "badass to more badass."

Characters gaining immense power is pretty much confined to one specific story type, the bildungsroman or coming-of-age story. The bildungsroman happens to be one of the most common tropes in fantasy, so it resonates with D&D players. But it's far from the only way to do things, and as the basis for an RPG I think it's overrated.

 

[Umbran]

Character development is a totally separate issue.

No, they aren't totally separate, insofar as the episodic style kind of requires that the character not go up much in power. This can be seen in the superhero comics world - in a broad sense, these are highly episodic. When they switch authors, and a new author jacks up a hero with new powers and abilities not justified by in-story events, the fans usually gripe pretty loudly.

 

[Dausuul]

No, they aren't totally separate, insofar as the episodic style kind of requires that the character not go up much in power. This can be seen in the superhero comics world - in a broad sense, these are highly episodic. When they switch authors, and a new author jacks up a hero with new powers and abilities not justified by in-story events, the fans usually gripe pretty loudly.

They're separate in the sense that character development - growing and changing as a person - has nothing to do with characters getting more powerful. You can have characters who develop without gaining significant power, and in fact that's the standard across all genres except fantasy. You can also have characters who gain vast amounts of power without developing in the slightest, which is the standard in bad fantasy.

It's true that episodic series don't generally incorporate the "protagonist gains phenomenal cosmic power" story arc, since it's, y'know, a story arc, which episodic series by definition don't have. But that doesn't mean non-episodic series have to have that particular story arc, and in fact, most don't.

 

[Umbran]

But that doesn't mean non-episodic series have to have that particular story arc, and in fact, most don't.

I agree that non-episodic series don't have to have such an arc - and I'm pretty sure I've not said anything remotely resembling that they did.

I am not going to go so far as to say, "most don't". I haven't done or seen a survey of genre literature classifying them in this regard, and I'm pretty sure the assertion isn't necessary for our purposes here. It seems to me that both are heartily represented in the literature, and contests to see which form "wins" are not working towards understanding here.

 

[Desdichado]

It seems to me that both are heartily represented in the literature, and contests to see which form "wins" are not working towards understanding here.

Well, luckily nobody has tried to make one of them win in this discussion. Joe mentioned the bildungsroman model as tried and true in fantasy, I pointed out several iconic fantasy stories that pointedly didn't follow that, and that was the extent of the conversation.

 

[Doug McCrae]

In fact, the only TV series I can think of offhand that does have dramatic power gains is "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."

Dragonball Z?

Superman from 1938-45 is the other outstanding example of dramatic, incremental power increase in fiction. He went from 'more powerful than a locomotive' etc to eating suns over that time period.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yawn.

Like there is anything truly 'new' under the sun?

Playing deities? Done.

Starting off as the ultra bad ass? Done.

Starting off as bad ass but in ultra gritty setting where you can get killed by a mean hobo? Done.

All of those thing shave been done in RPGs, yes, but not with anywhere near the frequency that Chump to God has been.

 

[Barastrondo]

Dragonball Z?

Lots of shonen anime, no doubt. Though usually the "chump" stage is quickly discarded for the "badass" stage, and it doesn't take long to start kicking into multiple stages of "god".

Superman from 1938-45 is the other outstanding example of dramatic, incremental power increase in fiction. He went from 'more powerful than a locomotive' etc to eating suns over that time period.

Comics are full of power creep. It'd be something to chart especially in the 1980s-1990s.

 

[Nifft]

In fact, the only TV series I can think of offhand that does have dramatic power gains is "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." And even there, out of three main characters, the only one who really skyrockets up the power scale is Willow.

"Heroes" (season 1) is essentially the story of three dudes climbing the ladder to god-hood. The empath goes from wimp to pimp, the villain keeps collecting pokébrains, and Hiro learns to control his powers until he can re-write history.

Cheers, -- N

 

[JoeGKushner]

Lots of shonen anime, no doubt. Though usually the "chump" stage is quickly discarded for the "badass" stage, and it doesn't take long to start kicking into multiple stages of "god".



Comics are full of power creep. It'd be something to chart especially in the 1980s-1990s.

That's the interesting thing about Berserk. It's got three 'arcs' of power creep to it so far.

Guts as a normal mercenary wieldling a huge sword.

Guts as a supernaturally branded mercenary wielding an even bigger sword.

Guts as a supernaturally branded mercenary with a lot of experience wearing cursed armor that keeps him fighting with the same sword.

The sad thing about most types of manga/anime in this style though, is that the God model tends to wind up as 'chump' model again when the new enemy is introduced.

In terms of comics... it really depends on which ones we're talking about. Outside of MJS's addition of powers to Spider Man, the character's 'power gains' have been minimal. Others like Wolverine, despite having a solid foundation, generally have the same powers, it's just their ability has expanded greatly. Still others like Marvel Girl do become near gods, but then you have the opposite effect, the fall back to mortalhood again. Seems to have to a lot of characters where they gain a huge power boost and then lose it all in one big 'radiactive' accident.

Part of that thought is ye old writting. Batman in Justice League of America is still human, but generally goes toe to toe with White Martains. Batman in some of his own comics? Lucky if he doesn't get winged by the common thugs.