The Cleric, The Paladin, and Multisysteming

[Minigiant]

Yes, D&D has evolved into 4 basic types of characters, weapons guy, skills guy, arcane guy, and divine guy. But there are more to every class to mixing and matching it up aspects and making the percentage of what and what.

The fighter is heavy weapons. The rogue is the skill class. The cleric is the divine class. But the paladin is not simply a fighter/cleric because it is part weapons and part divine. Subsystems are a the wrong (read as lazy) way to make the paladin. A fighter/cleric and a paladin are two separate things.

A fighter has the basic adventurer aspects, basic combat features, advanced combat features, and some exclusive fighter stuff.
A cleric has the basic adventurer aspects, basic divine features, advanced divine features, and some exclusive cleric stuff. A character that has basic and advanced combat and divine features is a fighter/cleric.

The paladin has to be something else.

 

[Connorsrpg]

The whole concept of class opening up a 'sweet' of powers, or mixing archetypes...I am with that. best way to do it - takes me back to Talent Trees.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-horizons-upcoming-edition-d-d/317901-talent-trees-way-go.html

The way I described Talent Trees in the thread - not Feat trees, etc! Sounds just like what they are getting at

 

[Bluenose]

I see absolutely no point making a class if you aren't going to make it unique in some way, ideally by giving it something unique to that class. Otherwise, you might just as well tell people to multi-class and be done with it. Use the Mass Effect games as an example. In ME1, the hybrid classes were exactly that, hybrids, with some of the abilities of the 'pure' classes and nothing of their own, and they didn't feel unique. In ME2 and ME3, they got something unique that only they did, and felt more interesting as a result.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

There is no doubt in my mind that there is considerable overlap between the Paladin and the Cleric, and between the Paladin and the Fighter. I definitely think there should be a shared list of divine abilities and a shared list of combat abilities, respectively, between these classes.

I also agree with the Mass Effect comparison. Give the Paladin their own additional list of unique features. ALSO give the Fighter his own list of unique abilities and the Cleric his own list. A Paladin is thus different from a Fighter/Cleric.

I will add that they DO need to differentiate divine from arcane magic. The distinction between the two is quite vague and has become even more so over editions. Carve out a niche for each in terms of the sorts of effects that can be created OR in terms of the mechanics the two use.

 

[Minigiant]

I see absolutely no point making a class if you aren't going to make it unique in some way, ideally by giving it something unique to that class. Otherwise, you might just as well tell people to multi-class and be done with it. Use the Mass Effect games as an example. In ME1, the hybrid classes were exactly that, hybrids, with some of the abilities of the 'pure' classes and nothing of their own, and they didn't feel unique. In ME2 and ME3, they got something unique that only they did, and felt more interesting as a result.

Exactly... Non-unique hybrids is for video-games. For a media where resources are so scarce and requires a lot of work.

D&D can make something unique by adding paragraph and pages.

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=882]Chris_Nightwing[/MENTION]

Exactly as I see it and this fits the concepts I had in mind with Talent Trees. Apparently I cannot XP you yet

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

[MENTION=19265]Connorsrpg[/MENTION]

No worries. I like talent trees. WotC need to revisit some of their 3E spinoffs and mine them for things that worked!

 

[Blackwarder]

I think that it's a good idea, I always though that the plain is a fighter subclass and I'm glad to see that they continue with the idea of four main classes or archetypes and every class falling in one of thems or in between.

So the way I see it, the paladin got the same to-hit progression of the warrior coupled with the same hit die and some of the martial menuveres, from the cleric it got the limited spell progression and turn undead powers and from himself he got his special abilities such as smite, lay on hands, detect evil etc.

On the same token the bard will take something from the rouge archetype and the wizards with some interesting stuff of his own, the assassins will be built on the warrior and rouge with some uses of poisons and other special abilities etc etc.

Thumbs up form me.

Warder

 

[Scribble]

To use an example most here are probably familiar with, the difference between a cleric/fighter and a paladin is Mass Effect.

That probably didn't make sense; let me explain. People who have played Mass Effect know that there are three basic "power sources" in the ME games: tech, biotics, and neither explosives. You have three pure classes (Engineer, Adept, and Soldier, respectively) and three hybrid classes (T/B = Sentinel, B/E = Vanguard, T/E = Infiltrator). Each class shares roughly 1/3 its powers with the two classes on either "side" (e.g. ME3 Adepts share Warp and Throw with Sentinel and Shockwave and Pull with Vanguard). So what makes a Vanguard different from an Adept plus a Soldier?

Unique powers. ME3 Vanguards have Biotic Charge and Nova, two powers which no other class has and which encourage drastically different playstyles, while the Adept has Stasis and Singularity and the Soldier has Adrenaline Rush and Concussive Shot. A Throw is a Throw is a Throw is a Throw, but a Stasis + Throw is not a Throw + Charge. Each class has two powers (plus base stat boosts, different equipment bonuses, etc. etc. etc.) that separate it from other classes, yet it is those two powers that make all the difference.

Sure- but that's not what the article seemed to indicate.

The article linked to at the begining basically said they could take some fighter powers, and some cleric powers blend them together and voila... Paladin.

Sure, they "probably" just didn't mention unique Paladin powers that would be a part of the class but..

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I look at it this way, if fighters get maneuvers and clerics get spells, and palidens get about 1/3 of the maneuvers and about 1/3 of the spells and few unque things (lay hands, aura, smite attacks) it would work out well

The mystic theurge on the other hand could get 1/3 a wizards spells and 1/3 a cleric spells and then a few unque abilities and make a name for itself.