The command prayer rubs me the wrong way sometimes

[Voss]

Ah. The joys of exception based design. The pages and pages of errata and clarifications dealing with how individual abilities interact with other individual abilities.

 

[Deadstop]

Involuntary push/pull/slides do break physical immobilization, including grab. They move the person in spite of mental immobilization, but the immobilized condition remains.

A push/pull/slide flavored as a charm is interesting, though, especially since you could use it to command an immoblilized ally out of a tough situation.

Warlord pushes/pulls/slides on allies raise the same question -- does inspiring someone to move out of turn also give them the oomph to break a grab (or Web spell, or whatever)?

I guess for now that's up to the individual group. The worry about dragging a grabber around isn't a problem, though. If Command does work on a physically immobilized target, the forced movement breaks the immobilization, so the grabber is neither retaining a long-range grab nor forced to move with the target. If Command is interpreted to not work on a physically immobilized target, then the situation never comes up.

I could see an argument that Command and the warlord ally-sliding powers trip something deep in the subconscious that does indeed empower the target to break physical immobilization (via your classic adrenaline- or insanity-fueled strength, perhaps). But I could also see a ruling that Command does not break physical immobilization because the movement is fluffed as voluntary (and keyworded as a charm effect).


Deadstop

 

[ki11erDM]

Ah. The joys of exception based design. The pages and pages of errata and clarifications dealing with how individual abilities interact with other individual abilities.

Unlike the pages and pages of 3.x errata and clarifications? hehehe

OP: If someone can't move because they are glued to the ground then if you command them to move they don't move. 4e really requires you to use common sense a lot more than 3.x.

 

[The Little Raven]

The cleric's command prayer can be used to cause a creature to slide 3 squares - it does this by compelling them to take the action themselves. But what if a creature can't physically accomplish this? By the rules as written, they'd move anyway. Even an immobilised creature somehow manages to move itself.

Doesn't this seem a bit silly? I mean, I could see the power working if it was a giant holy fist shoving someone 3 squares, but it has the "charm" keyword, so I can't even re-flavour it.

Should the command power (or the immobilised condition) be errataed to prevent this?

"Do you remember when there were only one set of footprints? That was when I was carrying you."

It's magic. As hong would say, try not to think too hard about it or you'll only cause yourself grief.

 

[The Little Raven]

Ah. The joys of exception based design. The pages and pages of errata and clarifications dealing with how individual abilities interact with other individual abilities.

Except if you actually read the book, there is no clarification needed. Immobilized prevents voluntary movement, but not forced movement. Pushing, pulling, and sliding is all forced movement. Shifting, running, crawling, or moving is voluntary movement. Simple.

 

[Destil]

Agreed. Command and Cause Fear should have been given some sort of 'Compulsion' keyword which could spell out how these work (and ideally give both a bit more kick by forcing the target to spend their own actions).

 

[The Little Raven]

Agreed. Command and Cause Fear should have been given some sort of 'Compulsion' keyword which could spell out how these work (and ideally give both a bit more kick by forcing the target to spend their own actions).

I can agree with the Compulsion keyword, but not with forcing people to expend actions from the action economy on things. Forcing that would make a lot of abilities far less useful than they are.

 

[KarinsDad]

I can agree with the Compulsion keyword, but not with forcing people to expend actions from the action economy on things. Forcing that would make a lot of abilities far less useful than they are.

For example?

I have a bit of a problem with prayers like Cause Fear which gives an opponent more movement outside of his turn than he could manage within his turn.

 

[The Little Raven]

For example?

Any power that allows an ally to move or shift would automatically eat up a move action in addition to the power user's spent action. I also don't want to use up both my standard and move action for the round because two powers used by others moved me. Then there's the ability to prevent a melee creature from using most of it's abilities simply by using forced movement, since that would use up it's move action, and it would need the standard action to either move into melee range or take a charge (thus, not using any of it's normal special abilities). Then there's the whole cost of the movement... if a target is slowed and I use Thunderwave to move him 3 squares, that would eat up two move actions with a simple at-will power.

 

[KarinsDad]

Any power that allows an ally to move or shift would automatically eat up a move action in addition to the power user's spent action. I also don't want to use up both my standard and move action for the round because two powers used by others moved me. Then there's the ability to prevent a melee creature from using most of it's abilities simply by using forced movement, since that would use up it's move action, and it would need the standard action to either move into melee range or take a charge (thus, not using any of it's normal special abilities). Then there's the whole cost of the movement... if a target is slowed and I use Thunderwave to move him 3 squares, that would eat up two move actions with a simple at-will power.

Who said this would be for "any move or shift power"?

What if it is only for compulsion powers? In that case, it would be no different than any other condition. Immobilized, one cannot move. Stunned, one cannot act. Feared (i.e. compulsion), one is forced to act in a certain way. But all of these should be on the turn of the target, not on the attacker's turn.

This entire concept of having enemies do a lot of "out of turn" activities that they could not otherwise do is strange. I have no problem with a few square shift, push or pull. I have more of a problem with other more extensive actions out of turn.