The Core Mechanic: New Design and Development

[med stud]

I disagree about the save-or-die effects: often, the Player did create that drama by making an incautious choice.

Further, given the way dragons usually are, many dragon fights will hinge on whether the dragon crits the party with his breath weapon. Which, depending on the hardness of the breath weapon, could very well amount to a "save-or-die" effect that the whole party passes unless the DM rolls a 20. Which is not necessarily bad... just that it isn't consistent.

The "flipped saves" or whatever you want to call them is an interesting idea, though. It doesn't seem better or worse than the old system.

It's very easy to let the dragon roll attacks against the PCs individually with it's breath weapon. I would say that would be appropriate when PCs fireball enemies as well. I think the "one attack against a group" is more appropriate against hordes of enemies so that you don't have to remember which ones of the 25 orcs that has 2 HP left and who has 5 HP left.

 

[Oldtimer]

...a 12th level fighter is just as easy to hit as a 1st level fighter?

Now, where in the article did you read that?

 

[FireLance]

It's very easy to let the dragon roll attacks against the PCs individually with it's breath weapon. I would say that would be appropriate when PCs fireball enemies as well. I think the "one attack against a group" is more appropriate against hordes of enemies so that you don't have to remember which ones of the 25 orcs that has 2 HP left and who has 5 HP left.

That might work. I recall some mention of "mook rules" earlier. So, perhaps one roll affects all mooks, but you need to roll against the defences of non-mook opponents separately?

 

[Oldtimer]

As a relevant tangent, I would like Armor's 'Max Dex Bonus' to vanish.
That was an awkward rule. They wanted to nod toward realism, but then made a rule that was totally unrealistic.
Armor should give a Dex penalty... then it impacts you regardless of Dex.
Using the Max Dex Bonus system, if my Dex Bonus is +1 but yours is +2 and we both wear the same armor with a Max Dex Bonus of +1, I'm not affected but you are reduced to my level. Even though you are naturally more nimble than I.
However, if the armor gives a flat -1 Dex bonus, then we are both equally affected.

But if everyone is equally affected by armour, you loose the incentive of a low Dex fighter to go the "canned food" route. With the "Max Dex Bonus" rule, you might as well armour up if you have a Dex of 10. If plate armour always gives you a penalty, that incentive vanishes.

For me it's more realistic that the low Dex guys go the armour route and the high Dex guys take the loincloth route. Good mechanics should encourage such tactics.

 

[Oldtimer]

It's very easy to let the dragon roll attacks against the PCs individually with it's breath weapon.

Very true. You might not even be able to crit if you roll against a whole group. The thought of area attacks being able to crit, has made me a bit worried.

Also, the "it will roll a 20 and deal double damage" seems to confirm that crit confirmation rolls are gone.

 

[Mercule]

Also, if both guys are in loincloths, how does it make sense that a 12th level fighter is just as easy to hit as a 1st level fighter? The 12th level guy should be able to parry that 1st level fighter's blows like the tantrums of a child.

...

Basically, you defend yourself with skill at arms, not HP ablation.

You've kinda hit the nail on the head. The increase in HP is supposed to (partly) represent an increase in skill at arms. To fix the whole "loincloth" issue, you have to play with not just armor (as DR, AC mod, whatever) and class/level defense bonus, but with hit points.

And, when you start messing with hit points, you have to restructure so many of the basic principles of the game that it would be a ground-up redesign.

I'm not saying hit points and AC are the best system. I'm just saying that they are the way things are done in D&D and are pretty foundational to the game, even if they suck.

 

[theredrobedwizard]

... lots of words...

Um. Hi. If'n Saga is any indication, characters will get a bonus to AC/Defenses based on level; so that 12th level fighter in a loincloth is about as hard to hurt as that 1st level fighter... if the Fighter 1 is in Platemail.

Ladies and gentlemen...we have the first 4e tidbit that I like!

Someone write this date down. Please?

-TRRW

 

[Wolfspider]

I'm not sure I like this idea of several different passive defenses. Sure it MIGHT make the DM's life easier (although it will probably just lead to him or her making more rolls), it takes a bit of ... something ... away from the players. I have found that players like rolling dice. If a spell is flung in their direction, they want to roll to avoid its effect. This is why in my D&D game I use the Defense roll option presented in the DMG (which is similar to the way combat is done in my beloved Cinematic Unisystem).

EDIT: Of course, this approach does make it easier for the DM to fudge rolls....

 

[theredrobedwizard]

... in my beloved Cinematic Unisystem...

[tangent]Well, YMMV, but every group I've ever been involved with has hated Unisystem. Not just disliked, but actively hated. I do believe that one player actually said "I wish the person who made this system would cut off their own hands, just so he can't make any more products for the line."[/tangent]

Point is, one of Attacks or Defenses should be rolled. The other needs to be static to speed things up. Saga/D&D4 have chosen to make Attacks variable, Defenses static. It really does speed things up; D&D3's combat took a mite long (even for relative experts on the system).

-TRRW

 

[Paraxis]

If we rethink the words "Critical Hit" as it applies to spells and other area effect attacks I think it can make perfect sense for a group critical.

Think of it as a "Critical Effect", the spell caster manages to tap into the weave or the mana stream alittle bit more, or the chaos that is magic surges for a second, the dragon taps inner reserves of energy as he breathes out a tremendus burst of flame.

So it's not that an individual gets hit in a weak area or anything, its that the original effect is stronger when the caster rolls a 20 to overcome the defense.

Same thing for when they roll a 1, it's that they came up short with the magical energy needed to pull of the effect or that the dragon get's a bubble of air in whatever crazy stuff that lets him breath fire.