The Cost of Raise Dead

[airwalkrr]

This is an old subject, and I'm sure it has been discussed many times before, but I haven't seen discussion on it for a while. Raise dead costs you XP and a level, as does resurrection. Now I can see why the 3e change removed the system shock check (not very fun to spend gp for nothing). But why did they change the raise dead cost from Constitution points to XP? What would be the harm of house ruling the raise dead costs 2 points of irrecoverably Constitution instead of a level drain.

Pro: Wouldn't have to recalculate stats or guess at which skills you choose or what HD you rolled in case you forgot.

Con: Character dies one too many times and he becomes too fragile to survive the average hazards of adventure.

Pro: Not a staggeringly significant loss of abilities and you get to stay at the same level as the rest of the party.

Con: You are more likely to die from things that typically cause death, like hit point damage, poison, and Fortitude saves.

Now to be honest, mechanically, I understand the cons of this choice. But they make sense to an extent. Raise dead is the cheapest way for a cleric to raise someone, so it follows that the spell is not powerful enough to raise someone completely intact. True resurrection is of course among the most powerful divine magic around (epic spells notwithstanding) so it would be fine to say no penalties for it. It certainly costs enough. Plus, if your character keeps dying, it doesn't seem like a bad thing to provide an incentive to the player to move on to a new character. Perhaps his character is simply fated to die young. Or maybe the character was just ill-suited to adventuring.

 

[green slime]

I detest the fact that player's characters are so easily brought back from the dead with such minor drawbacks anyhow. Bringing someone back from the dead should entail at least its own seperate adventure, not just some waving of hands, a little diamond and a few XP...

So basically I'm all for there being heavy penalties to coming back from the land of the dead. Akin to the Horror book.

 

[Stalker0]

While Xp is a big hit, its not an irrevocable cost. When you lose a level, you should start gaining more xp than the rest of the party, meaning you will catch up. Con damage is permanent, its never coming back.

A good houserule I've seen is when the person is raised, they come back with a negative level. This negative level cannot be removed until the person levels again, and then negative level is dispelled (so the person virtually gains 2 levels at once). This leds to a form of resurrection sickness that while still debilitating, its not permanent.

If you wish to increase the harshness, you could assign 2 negative levels.

 

[Chimera]

I never understand the whole "it's too easy" thing.

First, you have to find a 9th+ level Cleric who is willing and interested in doing it on someone who is probably a complete stranger, has the material component handy (I don't hand wave that) and who can be found, contacted and be available for casting within 1/day per Caster Level.

Seriously. If you don't like easy Raise Deads, then work these angles. Clerics of that level shouldn't be as common as all that, they shouldn't all be interested in raising just anyone, in some cases they may demand a seriously stiff fee, and they may well not have all that much money tied up in a small but costly pile of diamond dust, just in case some random fool wants to be raised. Heck, maybe they've only tied up that much money just in case something happens to someone important, in which case they're not going to be interested in wasting their costly components on some random schmuck.


As for the House Rule, that's not too far from RAW, which says that you lose the 2 Con if you're 1st level (and thus don't have the level to lose).

For myself, I HR that you can't be raised at 1st level. Period. Then, since I'm experimenting with different systems, I say that you lose your choice of;
> 1 level, or;
> 2 Con, or;
> 1 Dork Tower Card and 2 Hero Points.

(and I might raise that last cost)

All that, assuming that you can get the body to a high enough Cleric in time, AND they're interested and available, AND you can afford their fee. None of which are guaranteed in any way.

 

[green slime]

I never understand the whole "it's too easy" thing.

First, you have to find a 9th+ level Cleric who is willing and interested in doing it on someone who is probably a complete stranger, has the material component handy (I don't hand wave that) and who can be found, contacted and be available for casting within 1/day per Caster Level.

Seriously. If you don't like easy Raise Deads, then work these angles. Clerics of that level shouldn't be as common as all that, they shouldn't all be interested in raising just anyone, in some cases they may demand a seriously stiff fee, and they may well not have all that much money tied up in a small but costly pile of diamond dust, just in case some random fool wants to be raised. Heck, maybe they've only tied up that much money just in case something happens to someone important, in which case they're not going to be interested in wasting their costly components on some random schmuck.

None of your "angles" work after the party cleric hits 9th level. Therefore: "It's too easy." Because then it is not just some random fool nor a random schmuck. Sorry, but this doesn't float my boat.

 

[Arkhandus]

I find Airwalkrr's houserule an acceptable alternative to the core rules. Though to be fair, you may have to go a bit easy on the PCs more often if Raise Dead suddenly becomes extremely finite in uses and rather permanent in its drawback. I don't find that disagreeable, but I would be more likely to pull my punches against the PCs.

Also, I figure, diamonds are not going to be a common commodity. They will be hoarded by experienced spellcasters, and the very rich nobles or merchants who own the diamond mines. Towns and villages and such aren't likely to have diamond dust available unless it's a diamond-mining town itself. The local priests may be able to petition the main churches of their faith in the cities, to have some diamond dust sent for raising an important local figure, but they're not going to have any luck if the main churches or whatnot aren't sure they're really going to use it for an important member of the flock/community. The main churches will certainly be divining if it's so or not, before considering sending the requested material.

 

[el-remmen]

I like my solution:

Raise Dead: This spell can only be cast when the caster and target are on ground consecrated to the god that provided the spell or a site holy to the god’s pantheon in general. There is no level loss, but the target returns 10 points of temporary Constitution damage. If this should drop him below a Constitution score of 1, he cannot be raised.

Thus, the average person cannot be raised. And the holy ground requirement can make the time limit mean something even when you have access to the spell every day.

And this. . .

Resurrection: For this spell to function someone dear to the departed must make an oath to the god in question. The oath is enforceable as by a Geas spell. In the case of evil gods, the oath must be made by someone who is owed a debt by the deceased. There is no negative effect to the raised person.

Now suddenly the people doing the resurrecting have to pay not the person being resurrected - changes how often it might happen. . . .

And finally. . .

True Resurrection: As Resurrection, however the target must have been a devout follower of the god in life.

 

[Krelios]

None of your "angles" work after the party cleric hits 9th level. Therefore: "It's too easy." Because then it is not just some random fool nor a random schmuck. Sorry, but this doesn't float my boat.

And he just carries thousands of gold worth of diamond dust around with him? Where'd he get it? If the party is willing to do a side quest in advance and be permantly keeping some of their wealth to the side, then why is it a problem?

 

[Chimera]

None of your "angles" work after the party cleric hits 9th level.

Sure they do.

Come up with 5k in Diamond Dust.

Anywhere at any time.

Yeah, right.

 

[Jack Simth]

When looking at Raise Dead, Ressurection, and True Ressurection, don't forget to look at Reincarnate (Druid) and Clone (Sor/Wiz).

Also, how do such restrictions impact duplicating Ressurection with a Wish, or Raise Dead / reincarnate with a Limited Wish? A Wizard or Sorceror doesn't exactly have a diety pull it off for him.....