The Cunningly Disguised MMIV Preview

[TheAuldGrump]

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Threadjack in Progress
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To get back to the point of this thread...

I rather like both the decision to use the new (and much improved, with the exception of the environments line) statblock, and to have example equipment. It menas that they are now treating monsters in the same fashion as the NPCs in the DMG, so if they have treasure that they can use they use it. (And I never randomly give monsters treasure after they are killed, is it too much to ask that the DM generate their stuff ahead of time? It is going to take the same amount of time either way...)

The Auld Grump

 

[Shemeska]

Tiamat is listed as Lord of the First in AD&D Monster Manual II.

And never after that point. 2e made it explicitely clear that Tiamat had -never- been an archfiend, or Lord of the 1st, but by virtue of her position near the gate to Dis, she was confused as such by some mortals.

3e has continued with this and has never referred to Tiamat as an archfiend, continually backing up the 2e lore on the topic.

 

[Ripzerai]

First point: Tiamat is NOT an archdevil.

She was in 1st edition, true, though she was a piss-poor excuse for one, not controlling any part of her layer beyond her immediate reach.

In 2nd edition they retconned this, replacing her with Zariel (who was usurped by Bel).

She did not pass her function on to Zariel. Zariel always had this function.

Second point: Takhisis is LE, not CE. She lives in the Nine Hells of Baator, not the Abyss. Her realm in Avernus is called Abthalom, the Nether Reaches. The people of Krynn refer to all of the lower planes as the Abyss, so when it says that Takhisis lives in the Abyss they don't mean the chaotic evil plane specifically.

Third point: Of course Tiamat has no problem with chaotic evil creatures! She's the patron of all evil dragons, lawful and chaotic alike. This is, of course, why it was idiotic to make her an archdevil in 1e. Redspawn arcanisses are CE because red dragons are CE.

 

[Shemeska]

1e MotP says that Takhisis is an aspect of Tiamat.
2e was nubulous on the idea, but never said they weren't the same (to my knowledge at least).

Either 'Planes of Law' or 'On Hallowed Ground' made a firm distinction between the two. Tiamat was on Avernus, and Takhisis was in her own divine domain in Baator (I don't recall which layer off the top of my head, but I can look it up).

 

[jstater]

Why don't any of the spawn have a bonus to hit Venger? Isn't he Tiamat's worst enemy?

 

[demiurge1138]

Come on, let's not get hysterical. Maybe the redspawn arcanisses are always chaotic evil because red dragons are always chaotic evil.

Bingo.

And why does every monster thread seem to turn into an arguement about differences in history between various editions?

Demiurge out.

 

[Sammael]

2e made it explicitely clear that Tiamat had -never- been an archfiend, or Lord of the 1st, but by virtue of her position near the gate to Dis, she was confused as such by some mortals.

In 2nd edition they retconned this, replacing her with Zariel (who was usurped by Bel).

She did not pass her function on to Zariel. Zariel always had this function.

Quotes? Sources?

It has always been my view that Tiamat stepped down from her position to pursue her divine agenda and Zariel was then promoted by Asmodeus. I positively hate retcons. I can live with revisions, though, if they make sense.

What would make the most sense is to switch Tiamat to be NE and remove her from Baator. Since this isn't happening, I maintain that a Lawful Evil entity/god would not (indeed, COULD not) create Chaotic Evil creatures.

 

[Shemeska]

Quotes? Sources?

'Planes of Law' - Baator section, pages 16 and 17. Tiamat is mentioned only as guardian of the gate to Dis, and explicitly as as a diety rather than a fiend.

'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' - page 30, makes clear that Bel is the current Lord of Avernus and has been for a hideous period of time, having usurped the prior Lord of the 1st (Zarial, though she is left unnamed).

'The Lords of the Nine' - Dragon Magazine article, Nov 1995 by Colin McComb - Bel is again listed as Lord of the 1st, having seized power from the original Lord of Avernus (Zariel is not named, but is now stated as having been female). Tiamat is mentioned as being falsely held by some to have been Lord of the 1st at some point, and she is explicitly -not- the original Lord that Bel usurped.

'Guide to Hell' - Zariel is named as the previously unnamed Lord of Avernus that Bel usurped. Again, Tiamat is the guardian of the portal to Dis, and is a deity, not a fiend, distinct from Zarial the former Lord of the 1st. Pages 28-30, among other references.

'Fires of Dis' - pages 32-33 describe Tiamat's lair and the portal to Dis. Tiamat guards the portal to Dis, and she is explicitely not a Baatezu. "The iron gate leading to Dis isn’t guarded by baatezu - Tiamat and the fiends have somewhat of a strained relationship."

3e Manual of the Planes, page 117 - Tiamat is the guardian of the portal to Dis, and Bel is Lord of the 1st, having long ago betrayed Zariel and usurped her position.

3e BoVD - no mention of Tiamat at all. Bel is Lord of the 1st, Zariel was the prior lord that he deposed.

 

[Sammael]

Alright. The former two sources thus don't actually disprove that Tiamat may have been the Lord of the First at some point in the past (before Zariel), but the latter two do. Thank you for the effort, Shemmy.

Let's not forget, though, that Guide to Hell contradicts much of Planescape, and that Planescape often contradicts itself (particularly with respect to archfiends).

 

[mhacdebhandia]

What would make the most sense is to switch Tiamat to be NE and remove her from Baator. Since this isn't happening, I maintain that a Lawful Evil entity/god would not (indeed, COULD not) create Chaotic Evil creatures.

Black dragons are CE. Red dragons are CE. White dragons are CE.

Maybe Tiamat shouldn't be LE, but let's not be foolish, eh?