The Cunningly Disguised MMIV Preview

[teitan]

I agree with you and I'm not sure we are a minority. I'm inclined to feel the new layout of MMIV generally is aimed at DMs who either don't have sufficient prep time or aren't inclined to do sufficient prep, at the expense of those who do.

How is it at the expense of those who do the prep time? It is much easier to ignore some information you don't like than for someone working full time to go out and make up whole cloth. Why punish the casual gamer for the benefit of the hard core gamer? That is an incestuous relationship and only keeps things within the hobby and brings in no one new. That's the problem with comics and getting a new audience, accessibility. I wouldn't want to see RPGs, especially D&D, an already marginalized hobby, be further marginalized due to the same problem.

Jason

 

[ThirdWizard]

How is it at the expense of those who do the prep time? It is much easier to ignore some information you don't like than for someone working full time to go out and make up whole cloth. Why punish the casual gamer for the benefit of the hard core gamer?

Because its easier to add items than to remove them. Like I said before, I could just add a greatsword +2 and add +2 att / +2 dmg. Done and done. Removing items and recalculating the stats based on the loss of them could prove very tiresome with high CR creatures and cause more mistakes with those calculations.

 

[Hussar]

True, ThirdWizard, but, then again, it's very, very nice to be able to open the page and run the creature as is. The creatures in the Monsters Manuals I-III were SUPPOSED to be hauling around magic items that they could use. It was factored into their CR.

Yet, how many DM's actually did that? For every encounter they statted up? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of creatures didn't have any items that they used, simply because most DM's never thought of it.

So, many of the encounters were underpowered since the CR assumed that you were going to give that CR 12 giant a suit of magic armor and a shocking burst greatsword.

Sure, it's annoying to have to recalc stats, but, then again, unless they are tossing stat buff items, the recalc should be fairly simple. Adding or subtracting a +2 sword isn't exactly difficult or time consuming.

 

[ThirdWizard]

A superior way to do it IMO would be instead of putting "Treasure: Standard" put how much that is. How many of us can name off the top of our heads how much gp a CR 9 should have on them? At least I can't. But, if you say the creature has 4,500 gp worth of stuff, it becomes pretty simple to ballpark: +1 weapon, +1 armor, 2 potions of cure moderate wounds, 500 gp gemmed amulet. Or ring of protection +1, +1 shield, potion of fly, three potions of cure light wounds. I didn't check the math, but those are probably pretty close ballparks.

I keep the chart handy so I don't have to look it up every time (becuase its annoyly hidden somewhere in the DMG), and that's how I do treasure most of the time. Those two examples off the top of my head took me about 10 seconds to jot down, and they're probably close enough for me.

 

[bastrak]

Because its easier to add items than to remove them. Like I said before, I could just add a greatsword +2 and add +2 att / +2 dmg. Done and done. Removing items and recalculating the stats based on the loss of them could prove very tiresome with high CR creatures and cause more mistakes with those calculations.

Exactly.

 

[frankthedm]

True, ThirdWizard, but, then again, it's very, very nice to be able to open the page and run the creature as is. The creatures in the Monsters Manuals I-III were SUPPOSED to be hauling around magic items that they could use. It was factored into their CR.

Yet, how many DM's actually did that? For every encounter they statted up? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of creatures didn't have any items that they used, simply because most DM's never thought of it.

So, many of the encounters were underpowered since the CR assumed that you were going to give that CR 12 giant a suit of magic armor and a shocking burst greatsword.

Actually, Monsters have random treasure, some of which might be useful, but it is classed NPCs [which can include monsters] that are supposed to have customized gear. A smart monster will put the valuables he has to good use, but the assumption is the creature is not kitting itself up with the "Treasure: Standard" entry. Monsters tend to be strong enough, it is classed NPCs who need their gear to be close to their CR.

Of couse CR also assumes 25 point-buy, if the PCs are stronger than that, then perhaps masterwork weapons should be the default.

Also "treasure" is supposed to include a LOT of mundane objects of modest value.

 

[sjmiller]

Of couse CR also assumes 25 point-buy, if the PCs are stronger than that, then perhaps masterwork weapons should be the default.

How do you come to that assumption? I have never heard it expressed that way before. All I understood was that the CR assumed that a party of four characters of CR level should be challanged by the creature.

 

[Knight Otu]

How do you come to that assumption? I have never heard it expressed that way before. All I understood was that the CR assumed that a party of four characters of CR level should be challanged by the creature.

Such an encounter is supposed to drain about 20% to 25% of the party's resources. A party with a higher point buy tends to have more resources (hit points, spells/day, and such)

 

[frankthedm]

How do you come to that assumption? I have never heard it expressed that way before. All I understood was that the CR assumed that a party of four characters of CR level should be challanged by the creature.

It comes out of wotc's mouth every once in a while. Also, how can a party of stronger PCs be as challenged by the same monsters that would be a challenge to a weaker party?

 

[frankthedm]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060223a Tangent Alert!: I think the real number might be more like 10 encounters nowadays, for reasons on both sides of the screen. DMs are increasingly likely to throw monsters one or two points of CR higher than the average level of the party. And players are often playing with ability scores that far outstrip the 25 point buy that is the game’s intended baseline. Which happened first is a chicken-and-egg question, I suppose.

One example.