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D&D 5E The D&D Advantage- The Campaign
- Thread starter Snarf Zagyg
- Start date
payn
Glory to Marik
5E is also the most popular edition!
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
None of those things is "the campaign," first off, which was rather the centerpiece of the OP. So, at least from that angle--sure, if we're broadening to include "whatever form advancement takes, no matter how divergent it becomes," then yes. But that's not a single thing over time. Almost every game with any component of strategy (even "purely random" games!) admits some kind of metric of progression if you're willing to generalize far enough. And "be innovative!" is hardly an "advantage"--it's more like a vital need, one that D&D has actually been pretty antagonistic toward across its history. After all, 4e also iterated in a ton of ways, pushing design, implementing genuinely innovative new concepts, and people actively shat on it and misrepresented it constantly.
Second, the subclass and concepts like that go pretty far afield from the "goodie bag"/persistent-character model. Like, they're kinda orthogonal to it. Yes, they offer a wider variety, but you can't mix them together. You're locked in, you're embarked, once you pick a subclass that's your subclass forever. So....that's kinda completely orthogonal to the "you can play this one character, and it never stops growing or participating unless you want to stop or things go really super wrong." It's not an advantage of the levelling experience that you're given a variety of options to play; it's a wholly unrelated advantage, enabling different fantasies efficiently. Which, sure, that's one of D&D's advantages--one it retains to this day, as many games tend to pursue a more narrow definition of fantasy. But it's not the same advantage as discussed in the OP.
And, again, that's a design space that the D&D community (and, to a certain extent, its creators) have been actively antagonistic toward. Even when 5e was being made, it was STILL considered a totally normal not at all insulting thing to mock people who like playing dragonborn, purely for that preference. Even when said in jest, such things are really Not Okay (I mean, for real, would you mock a good friend purely because they told you they like sweet, fruit-flavored mixed drinks instead of beer? Even as a playful ribbing, that kind of thing can really hurt!) but it's literally only been in the last couple years that the old hands and the game designers have started to, y'know, actually treat dragonborn fans as serious people who just genuinely like something, rather than dweebs or immature roleplayers or whatever else.
Or, for a literal demonstration that just happened on this very forum, consider the "what class do you dislike most" thread, where multiple posters have expressly said that Artificer and Monk shouldn't exist in D&D because they don't fit the fantasy, aka, because enabling that fantasy in some way bothers or upsets those players. And the same thing goes for the Warlord, which some people are actively hostile toward, despite it being intensely beloved by its fans.
This is (just) one way that the fanbase can be actively antagonistic to the things that make a thing actually great. Enabling a diverse spectrum of fantasies has always been an important pillar of D&D. It's why have the pseudo-Van Helsing Cleric today, and why Gygax permitted people to play balrogs or dragons at his table as long as they were willing to start weak and grow strong with effort--but it's also always been under attack from the traditionalist fans (and, sometimes, traditionalist designers) who have an uncompromising view of what the game "should" be.
Aldarc
Legend
True. And Han shot first.
Han was the only one who got a shot off. Greedo never shot at all. But what you are alluding to was the 1997 Special Edition change.
Right. He shot first before Greedo had a chance to shoot him. Like any good space scoundrel should.
Helldritch
Hero
The campaign a driving force? Nahhhhh....
Leveling? Nahhhhhhh....
It is not those things alone that explains the success of D&D. It is the whole package. Other systems offers as much the same thing as possible yet, they do not have the success D&D enjoyed and enjoys still (with exception of the 4ed, agreed).
The real drive behind the success is that it was the first to mix all these together. And over the years, it was supported by a Magazine, adventures and different campaigns possibilities. The fact that D&D is generic enough to accommodate a lot of genres and the system is relatively easy enough to learn makes it ideal for starting players to play almost immediately.
As I said, many systems have the campaign and a leveling system but they do not enjoy the same popularity. D&D has also a big ace. And it is the backlog of adventures, campaigns, reference books and all source books ever printed that are almost 100% compatibles. That is a huge advantage and it explains 4ed failure to reach the mass of players they were hoping to reach. 4ed was not compatible to other editions of the game (at least not without a lot of work). 5ed made sure that is was compatible right out of the box and the success came with it. You can take any adventures of previous editions (even 4ed) and you can use it with less work than building your own.
So D&D is 1st not only because it was the first, but also because it made sure that ita previous materials could be used throughout it editions. Only once did it not do that in its history and it backfired in a spectacular fashion.
NB:" I really did like 4th edition. I do not wish to start edition warring but it is a fact that it was not well received."
Leveling? Nahhhhhhh....
It is not those things alone that explains the success of D&D. It is the whole package. Other systems offers as much the same thing as possible yet, they do not have the success D&D enjoyed and enjoys still (with exception of the 4ed, agreed).
The real drive behind the success is that it was the first to mix all these together. And over the years, it was supported by a Magazine, adventures and different campaigns possibilities. The fact that D&D is generic enough to accommodate a lot of genres and the system is relatively easy enough to learn makes it ideal for starting players to play almost immediately.
As I said, many systems have the campaign and a leveling system but they do not enjoy the same popularity. D&D has also a big ace. And it is the backlog of adventures, campaigns, reference books and all source books ever printed that are almost 100% compatibles. That is a huge advantage and it explains 4ed failure to reach the mass of players they were hoping to reach. 4ed was not compatible to other editions of the game (at least not without a lot of work). 5ed made sure that is was compatible right out of the box and the success came with it. You can take any adventures of previous editions (even 4ed) and you can use it with less work than building your own.
So D&D is 1st not only because it was the first, but also because it made sure that ita previous materials could be used throughout it editions. Only once did it not do that in its history and it backfired in a spectacular fashion.
NB:" I really did like 4th edition. I do not wish to start edition warring but it is a fact that it was not well received."
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
sigh
Knew somebody was going to feel too strong an urge toward pedantry on this one, but I thought maybe the internet might let it go, just this once, given how tangential any of that information is to the topic. Serves me right, I suppose. Yes, I was aware of all these facts. I didn't consider them salient, and in fact, I chose the names I used because I figured there would be more people who would be confused by not calling it "Episode IV" or "A New Hope" than who would be perturbed by the factual inaccuracy of referring to the original '77 film by the '81 re-release's name.
Aldarc
Legend
I didn't realize my minor quibble would result in receiving such a disproportionately grumpy retort. Christ. If this is how you talk to people who actually like you, I hate to see how you'd respond to people who don't. Sorry for ever posting, EzekielRaiden.
Helpful NPC Thom
Adventurer
It's not the reward loop alone that has propelled D&D to its enviable position. The reward loop is certainly part of it, but it's not everything. I consider the reward loop perfected in two D&D editions: early editions and 4e. Early editions utilized the gold-for-XP mechanic, which was ingenious and extraordinarily gameable. 4e utilized combat-for-XP and emphasized leveling up to gain new powers and abilities (moreso than other editions, as the AEDU structure provided 30 levels of powers for all classes, even non-casters). One of these created a massive following while the other remains a relatively niche system.
The reward loop isn't everything, agreed. Pathfinder initially gained a large following by copy-pasting 3.5, yet Pathfinder 2e has a drastically reduced following despite being an overall better designed system that utilizes the same reward loop as modern D&D (combat-for-XP).
We also need to look at why D&D was so successful initially. "Familiarity, marketing, and having been the top dog" don't explain why D&D achieved the status as a cultural artifact in the first place. You're telling me a game about elves and wizards just happened to strike gold because it was first to the market? Press X to doubt on that one.
I consider D&D a very American game, especially early editions. It appeals to particular American sensibilities: settlers on an unexplored frontier, rags-to-riches stories, the self-made man. Add to that mix a dash of wargaming, a bit of fantasy nerdery, and the reward loop and you've got a big hit for American teenage boys. Other demographics filter in, the hobby broadens to encompass general fantasy gaming and storytelling, and there's your "top dog."
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I apologize. Saying what I said, the way I said it, was dumb. I was very frustrated overall and, honestly, felt like that was "yeah cool story bro, but did you know you got this one unrelated fact wrong?" rather than engaging with anything I'd actually said. That wasn't your intent, and I shouldn't have responded as though it was.
