The d30 system

[bloodymage]

Well, DUH!

There's been a mention of 3d6. There's been a mention of percentiles. This whole thread is a discussion of the problems encountered when the bell curve and other statistical models are removed from game design. I threw away my d30's! They're useless. The problem here is that WotC with its d20 design has turned everything into linear outcomes. Talk about increasing randomness! There was a reason AD&D was designed with a variety of dice rolls. In 1e this very element is discussed by G. Gygax in an introductory section. I run 3e, but I use multiple dice and percentiles to generate statistical results that are, IMHO, more conducive to play.

 

[Crothian]

Would you care to eloborate on that?

 

[Azlan]

Having a +2 bonus (for example, through the Skill Focus Feat) is already (on a d20 roll) worth not that much (10%), and on an opposed roll the chance of a character with a +2 bonus winning is slightly less than 60%.

Even a +4 or +5 bonus doesn't give the relative superiority that it should. Imagine a computer geek (ST 8) in a pushing match vs a WWF superstar (ST 18, for argument's sake.) The geek will win under the d20 system over 25% of the time. In fact, an average human (ST 10, +0 bonus) can stand in the path of a charging horse (+4 size, +3 ST, +2 charge) and stop the horse dead in its tracks about 13% of the time. Take 100 people and charge 100 (trained war-)horses into them and I guarantee you 13 of them wont be standing after the collision...

Under a d30 system, these differences become even *less* meaningful.

Heck, I've been looking toward using a 3d6 system to make the differences *more* important...

I agree! But if you want bonuses to be more meaningful, while not getting too far away from the d20 and thus throwing the system out of whack, how about use 2d10 instead of 3d6? That way, you get a numbers range much closer to the d20 system, but you still have a bell curve (albeit a slight one).

Such a bell curve would certainly make bonuses (or penalties) more meaningful, but not to the extreme as using 3d6. Furthermore, adding up the numbers rolled on 2d10 is a little quicker and easier. (Don't scoff! It *is*, especially when you consider how often you rolls those dice during any given game session. )

The chance for rolling a particular number, using 2d10, is as follows...

2: 1%
3: 2%
4: 3%
5: 4%
6: 5%
7: 6%
8: 7%
9: 8%
10: 9%
11: 10%
12: 9%
13: 8%
14: 7%
15: 6%
16: 5%
17: 4%
18: 3%
19: 2%
20: 1%

The chance for rolling a particular number or higher on 2d10 is as follows...

2: 100%
3: 99%
4: 97%
5: 94%
6: 90%
7: 85%
8: 79%
9: 72%
10: 64%
11: 55%
12: 45%
13: 36%
14: 28%
15: 21%
16: 15%
17: 10%
18: 6%
19: 3%
20: 1%

Incidentally, we used 2d10 instead of 3d6 in our GURPS and Hero System (Champion, Fantasy Hero, etc.) campaigns, and it worked really well.

Using 2d10 in 3E D&D combat, I'd make a natural 2 or 3 on the dice roll an automatic miss and a possible fumble, and all threat ranges would be increased by one. (Thus, a threat range of 19-20 would become 18-20.)

I've seriously thought about incorporating this into my campaign, since I dislike how, indeed, a Str 8 weakling in a pushing match versus a Str 18 strongman will win over 25% of the time, using the d20 system as-is. However, this would be the one rule that would enable the players to say, "Hey! You've gone to far with your house rules -- now we *really* aren't playing the d20 system any more!"

 

[twjensen]

3d6

The Fuzion rules use 3d6, and appear to have heavily influenced the d20 system. So I don't see a problem with switching to 3d6.

What it does:
1) a 1st level thief might actually *ATTEMPT* a pickpocket. Under the D20, the only cutpurses are also 10th level rogues.
2) makes high-level combat almost entirely strategic, removing the random element almost entirely once bonuses get into the +10 and up range.

What it hurts:

See above, but view from the perspective of someone who likes randomness and likes low level characters living in perpetual fear of failing at shoe-tying. Of course, this IS more fun for the DM. . .

 

[hong]

Re: Well, DUH!

There's been a mention of 3d6. There's been a mention of percentiles. This whole thread is a discussion of the problems encountered when the bell curve and other statistical models are removed from game design. I threw away my d30's! They're useless. The problem here is that WotC with its d20 design has turned everything into linear outcomes. Talk about increasing randomness! There was a reason AD&D was designed with a variety of dice rolls. In 1e this very element is discussed by G. Gygax in an introductory section. I run 3e, but I use multiple dice and percentiles to generate statistical results that are, IMHO, more conducive to play.

Eh. AD&D has always used a d20 roll for task resolution purposes. Roll a d20 to attack, roll a d20 for saves, roll a d20 for skill checks. The only difference was that before 3E, each of these tasks used an algorithm that was almost, but not quite, completely unlike the others.

What a 3d6 (or 2d10, or 5d4, or whatever) roll does, compared to a d20, is compress possible outcomes around the mean. This results in its own problems, for example making it harder to gauge the significance of a given modifier. The advantage of using one die is that a +1 bonus means the same thing regardless of any other modifiers. Using 3d6 instead of d20 also wouldn't do anything to address the issue of high-level play being excessively fragile.

If you want less randomness in your results, you should use take 10 and take 20 wherever possible. That's what they're there for, so that (for example) a guy flipping burgers doesn't end up with 5% of burgers on the floor.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Just had an odd thought while reading through this thread--and probably not a very good one at that.

But here goes, in the hopes in might somehow spark a more useful idea...


A character rolls a d20 and adds the ones digit from his ability. Furthermore, for every 10 FULL points in the ability he rolls an additional d20 and adds this result to the total.

[color=red][b]
SKILL RANGE        ROLL
[/b]
    0-9           d20+(0-9)

   10-19         2d20+(0-9)

   20-29         3d20+(0-9)...
[/color]

When two foes each have multiple d20's, reduce the lower (or both, if they are equal) to a single d20, then reduce the higher by a like amount. For example, 3d20+2 versus 2d20+5 would be resolved as, 2d20+2 versus d20+5.

For multiple d20's, perhaps a threat could be scored by each of the dice, with multiple threats instead increasing the damage multiplier of a critical success, in order to speed up play.

P.S. Forgot to mention that the above assumes that "defenders" roll as well, rather than "taking 10".

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

We should use coins, men, coins!!!

Ever check out the Prince Valiant RPG?

 

[Steven McRownt]

IMHO, if we want to really change the d20 system, and solve all this kind of problems, we should start to think to a DICELESS system.

Steven McRownt

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Thought I'd add a concrete example in case the above wasn't clear...

BAB +35 versus AC 68

Normally, impossible to hit unless auto success on a "20" is used--so, max 5% chance to hit.

Using method above, d20+5 versus 3d20+8 (+3 bonus d20 versus +5 bonus d20 simplifies to +0 bonus d20 versus +2 bonus d20).

(Remember, AC assumes "taking 10"; therefore, AC 68 would normally be d20+58--just reduce all DCs or ACs by 10 before figuring bonus d20s and adders).

So, we get a possible range of outcomes of 6-25 versus 11-68, rather than the standard 36-55 versus 68 (or 59-79)--I'll let someone else figure the odds .

Note: To figure bonus d20s and adders...

Number of bonus d20s equals "tens" digit.

Amount of adder equals "ones" digit.

(I've really got too much time on my hands today )

 

[Crothian]

IMHO, if we want to really change the d20 system, and solve all this kind of problems, we should start to think to a DICELESS system.

Steven McRownt

Diceless is okay, but I've never seen it properly run. Personally, I like the random element dice bring. Dice rituals and karma are one of the great things about gaming. Everyone has dice stories, br they good luck or bad. Everyone has seen people act wierd with dice, and heaven forbid you touch another gamers dice.

While I'm the first to admmit that the game is about the characters and the concepts of them within the story and interaction eith characters, I just can't get rid of the fun dice bring to the table.