D&D 5E The Debate of "Canon" in D&D 5E

[Micah Sweet]

I don't get the specific reference, but I assume you're trying to make fun of me. I hope you're enjoying yourself.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Hey, @Aldarc, the mocking/trolling isn't called for. Play nice.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

WotC no longer has any elevated position among 5e publishers for me

Why should it have any special position? There are lots of people making RPGs, judge them by their product, not their brand name.

 

[teitan]

I wanted to add on from my previous post: canon has always been hotly contested in every media with companies saying one thing, the creators saying another and fans wanting one thing and none of them agreeing with each other. To use a recent example, Netflix released Masters of the Universe: Revelations and people lost their minds about "canon" and "continuity". Nevermind that MOTU has never once had a singular, locked in continuity. WHen Filmation was producing the animated series they had a story bible but often their stories contradicted previous episodes and characters would, what we would call nowadays, act out of character. On top of that Mattel had their mini-comics packed in with the toys that were different from the animated series and then there was the DC mini-series which preceded the animated series and was followed by a short lived Marvel Star Imprint all ages comic book.

Then MOTU went away for a short period of time and re-emerged as New Adventures of He-man and it ignored some of the later issues of the mini-comic like the last issue hinting that SKeletor was He-man's uncle. It was not a good time period!

Then you had the 200x tightly written Mike Young Productions reboot for He-man that had comic books that were written around it's storylines and lasted two seasons on cartoon network. Funny, back when this was on, people lost their minds about canon then as well. But I digress, this series established solidly that Skeletor was He-man's uncle and all sorts of other things that would now be "canon" for the next handful of years but wait... in this one He-man daddy was a mere captain in the Army named King by the elders of Eternia. The series did give us a name for the blue skinned people and a geography for Eternia and a solid backstory or skeletor.

Then it died and we got... another story with the MOTU CLassics line that had it's own mini comics and continuity and it's own Snidely Whiplash type brand manager saying "this is it, this is the super story that gives you a unified He-man continuity, it's official". It's not. It's convoluted, contradictory, contrived. Randor and Skeletor are both princes with Skeletor the elder true heir to the throne who has it stolen from him etc etc. It was meant to be a continuation of the 200x story but it contradicts that as well.

SO here comes Revelation and canon folks, with their misremembered or half remembered pieces of cartoons and storybooks, conflating of MOTUC materials with other materials and... head canons, making YouTube videos about Kevin SMith and Netflix changing MOTU continuity and canon. Like gnashing teeth and fighting over it.

Essentially... canon is your thing. It's your head game to play with. Different creators will tell you oh that's continuity, that's canon and others will tell you the opposite. When Grant Morrison was writing Batman he was saying "everything counts" and when new 52 launched editorial was saying "this is a new beginning, not everything happened" while Morrison was still writing from the "everything counts" philosophy. Geoff Johns was still writing GL from the same angle. DC was saying it wasn't true and even partway through the new 52 changing things so that published issues were different from TPB collections. Characters got new names, word balloons changed, references removed to fit editorial vision.

Stick to your head canon, it's all that matters. If it is what you love, then that is your story. Especially in Roleplaying games where that is the whole idea. Your story. Not Ed's. Not Salvatore's. Not Gygax's. Not Perkins'. Not Mearls'. Not any of them. It's your story. Like life, live your story instead of having someone else tell you what it is.

 

[Scott Christian]

I wanted to add on from my previous post: canon has always been hotly contested in every media with companies saying one thing, the creators saying another and fans wanting one thing and none of them agreeing with each other. To use a recent example, Netflix released Masters of the Universe: Revelations and people lost their minds about "canon" and "continuity". Nevermind that MOTU has never once had a singular, locked in continuity. WHen Filmation was producing the animated series they had a story bible but often their stories contradicted previous episodes and characters would, what we would call nowadays, act out of character. On top of that Mattel had their mini-comics packed in with the toys that were different from the animated series and then there was the DC mini-series which preceded the animated series and was followed by a short lived Marvel Star Imprint all ages comic book.

Then MOTU went away for a short period of time and re-emerged as New Adventures of He-man and it ignored some of the later issues of the mini-comic like the last issue hinting that SKeletor was He-man's uncle. It was not a good time period!

Then you had the 200x tightly written Mike Young Productions reboot for He-man that had comic books that were written around it's storylines and lasted two seasons on cartoon network. Funny, back when this was on, people lost their minds about canon then as well. But I digress, this series established solidly that Skeletor was He-man's uncle and all sorts of other things that would now be "canon" for the next handful of years but wait... in this one He-man daddy was a mere captain in the Army named King by the elders of Eternia. The series did give us a name for the blue skinned people and a geography for Eternia and a solid backstory or skeletor.

Then it died and we got... another story with the MOTU CLassics line that had it's own mini comics and continuity and it's own Snidely Whiplash type brand manager saying "this is it, this is the super story that gives you a unified He-man continuity, it's official". It's not. It's convoluted, contradictory, contrived. Randor and Skeletor are both princes with Skeletor the elder true heir to the throne who has it stolen from him etc etc. It was meant to be a continuation of the 200x story but it contradicts that as well.

SO here comes Revelation and canon folks, with their misremembered or half remembered pieces of cartoons and storybooks, conflating of MOTUC materials with other materials and... head canons, making YouTube videos about Kevin SMith and Netflix changing MOTU continuity and canon. Like gnashing teeth and fighting over it.

Essentially... canon is your thing. It's your head game to play with. Different creators will tell you oh that's continuity, that's canon and others will tell you the opposite. When Grant Morrison was writing Batman he was saying "everything counts" and when new 52 launched editorial was saying "this is a new beginning, not everything happened" while Morrison was still writing from the "everything counts" philosophy. Geoff Johns was still writing GL from the same angle. DC was saying it wasn't true and even partway through the new 52 changing things so that published issues were different from TPB collections. Characters got new names, word balloons changed, references removed to fit editorial vision.

Stick to your head canon, it's all that matters. If it is what you love, then that is your story. Especially in Roleplaying games where that is the whole idea. Your story. Not Ed's. Not Salvatore's. Not Gygax's. Not Perkins'. Not Mearls'. Not any of them. It's your story. Like life, live your story instead of having someone else tell you what it is.

That is a phenomenal example. And the fact that you know it all, blows my mind. Thanks for teaching.

If I had to guess the primary problem between any two camps is that the definition of canon changes; therefore, the debate shifts between which lore has an impact on rules, and then how those rule changes are perceived.

But again, great explanation. And your conclusion is in my book.

 

[Aldarc]

SO here comes Revelation and canon folks, with their misremembered or half remembered pieces of cartoons and storybooks, conflating of MOTUC materials with other materials and... head canons, making YouTube videos about Kevin SMith and Netflix changing MOTU continuity and canon. Like gnashing teeth and fighting over it.

Essentially... canon is your thing. It's your head game to play with. Different creators will tell you oh that's continuity, that's canon and others will tell you the opposite. When Grant Morrison was writing Batman he was saying "everything counts" and when new 52 launched editorial was saying "this is a new beginning, not everything happened" while Morrison was still writing from the "everything counts" philosophy. Geoff Johns was still writing GL from the same angle. DC was saying it wasn't true and even partway through the new 52 changing things so that published issues were different from TPB collections. Characters got new names, word balloons changed, references removed to fit editorial vision.

Stick to your head canon, it's all that matters. If it is what you love, then that is your story. Especially in Roleplaying games where that is the whole idea. Your story. Not Ed's. Not Salvatore's. Not Gygax's. Not Perkins'. Not Mearls'. Not any of them. It's your story. Like life, live your story instead of having someone else tell you what it is.

I think the problem is that many fans view these properties through the lens of in-universe canon rather than how they actually exist: i.e., corporate IPs.

There are multiple iterations and reiterations of Batman, for example, throughout various media properties. The DCAU, for example, didn't strictly adhere to the DC "canon," but it made innovations to the stories and characters that were so influential (e.g., Mr. Freeze's new origin story, Harlequin, Renee Montoya, Terry McGinnis, Mercy Graves, etc.) that they reverberated back into DC Comics, and some fans primarily know these stories through the lens of the DCAU rather than the actual comics.

I prefer that these characters, including He-Man, are reinvented through new media rather than strictly adhering to some mythical canon. It keeps these properties fresh, updated, and alive.

 

[Hussar]

I wonder, if, back in the day, folks argued about which version of Arthur was "canon". "Lancelot?!?! WTF BBQ!!! Totally ruined the story!"

 

[Mecheon]

I wonder, if, back in the day, folks argued about which version of Arthur was "canon". "Lancelot?!?! WTF BBQ!!! Totally ruined the story!"

I mean, on one hand, I don't think the idea of it really got set in place this hardcore until largescale publishing and regular stuff, to the point the idea of canon didn't coalese for a while longer

But on the other hand. of course they did. There's at least one story about the Greek gods that's set up with "Hey there's this bloody ghost haunting this vinyard and he says he was actually at these events and knows the actual way things went down, which aren't what people say"

 

[teitan]

I mean, on one hand, I don't think the idea of it really got set in place this hardcore until largescale publishing and regular stuff, to the point the idea of canon didn't coalese for a while longer

But on the other hand. of course they did. There's at least one story about the Greek gods that's set up with "Hey there's this bloody ghost haunting this vinyard and he says he was actually at these events and knows the actual way things went down, which aren't what people say"

There were wars fought over canon in the medieval period. We called them the Crusades. They were never settled.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Anyone else here a comic fan and totally envy a fandom whose canon only gets blown up every decade or so rather than Every. Summer. and sometimes in the winter too?