D&D 5E (2014) The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Micah Sweet]

Only because you've an unpleasant decision in front of you: to carry on at reduced h.p.; or to go back to town alone; or to try and talk the rest of the party into going back with you.

In a game I play in we're in this boat right now: two of our number (one a front-liner, the other a mage, FWIW) got hit by a clay golem and can't be cured. We don't have Heal in the field (in our game it's Heal that fixes this), meaning we had to find a way of getting those two out to help and back again without giving up our hard-won ground. We managed it, but at cost of time and resources.

Success at a cost. Who would've thought?

 

[Lanefan]

Really easy to do that if you never knew the Clay Golem existed (or the DM reskinned it >.> yes I'm still bitter on that one) until he started hacking away at your front liner and you realized you'd need like TWO WHOLE LEVELS before learning the SINGLE SPELL that could fix it.

DnD is supposed to be a game full of infinite possibility and then you design a monster with an affliction that has a SINGLE SOLUTION?! I'm sorry but that's not only bad design, it's a STUPID design.

I'm not even asking for an instantaneous cure. I don't mind that the Paladin can't just go take an hour long nap and be fine... but give me some damn outs! What even IS that effect? Is it a curse? Is it a disease? Is it a spell that can be dispelled? No, it's just... is?

The "out" is that you go back to town, find out what's afflicting you, and get it fixed.

Some things can't (and IMO shouldn't) be easily if at all fixable in the field.

The condition itself is honestly pretty lame, as it basically punished a tank for tanking.

Then how come one of our mages just had to get this very thing fixed?

IMO it feels designed by a mean spirited DM who was tired his melee types were getting too cool for non-casters.

Nah - a DM who feels like that need only unleash a herd of Rust Monsters on to the party in a confined space...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Really easy to do that if you never knew the Clay Golem existed (or the DM reskinned it >.> yes I'm still bitter on that one) until he started hacking away at your front liner and you realized you'd need like TWO WHOLE LEVELS before learning the SINGLE SPELL that could fix it.

DnD is supposed to be a game full of infinite possibility and then you design a monster with an affliction that has a SINGLE SOLUTION?! I'm sorry but that's not only bad design, it's a STUPID design.

I'm not even asking for an instantaneous cure. I don't mind that the Paladin can't just go take an hour long nap and be fine... but give me some damn outs! What even IS that effect? Is it a curse? Is it a disease? Is it a spell that can be dispelled? No, it's just... is?

Have you ever seen a 4e disease track? That stuff would have worked wonder for that kind of condition, and the disease track interacted ith more than just one single friggin' spell! You know who learns Greater Restoration: Bard, Druid, Cleric and Celestial Warlock. Bard and Warlock don't get to just sleep and switch spells, so if they don't think it's that useful because the kind of condition it's designed to counter doesn't happen often, you could just be without that spell completely if your party doesn't include a Druid or Cleric capable of casting 5th level spells.

The condition itself is honestly pretty lame, as it basically punished a tank for tanking. IMO it feels designed by a mean spirited DM who was tired his melee types were getting too cool for non-casters.

Hard disagree. It's a tough world out there, and sometimes there aren't easy in the field solutions.

 

[Undrave]

Only because you've an unpleasant decision in front of you: to carry on at reduced h.p.; or to go back to town alone; or to try and talk the rest of the party into going back with you.

In a game I play in we're in this boat right now: two of our number (one a front-liner, the other a mage, FWIW) got hit by a clay golem and can't be cured. We don't have Heal in the field (in our game it's Heal that fixes this), meaning we had to find a way of getting those two out to help and back again without giving up our hard-won ground. We managed it, but at cost of time and resources.

Ya know, if the condition could be cured by succeeding on a few dice roll (wether it was like an Arcana check from someone or the target getting a few saving throws) where each roll could only happen if you spent the previous day doing nothing but being nursed in a safe place, I wouldn't find the condition that badly designed. The whole thing would feel like it was built to be a tension builder, something special to pop on your party for special occasion. If it worked like a 4e disease track, for exemple, it'd be understandable.

The problem is that if you do have the right spell in the part it goes from 'scary' to 'meh' in an instant. That's just absurd that, just because Bob decided to play a Cleric this time we can just ignore the Clay Golem once it's down, but if he had went for a Wizard we'd be faced with a super tense dilemna.

Heck, when I encountered it we were barely pushed for time. We had a few things to finish that day (we were literally auditing a dude's collection of magical doodads for like... accountants or somthing!) and then we were free to travel back to a bigger town and find a Cleric to fix the frontliners up. It took us one session. It didn't feel tense, it just felt frustrating.

 

[Undrave]

Hard disagree. It's a tough world out there, and sometimes there aren't easy in the field solutions.

Except that THERE IS an easy solution: just know the Greater Restoration spell.

If it was ALWAYS hard to fix? I'd get it. But it feels stupidly unfair that there's a REALLY easy solution or NOTHING.

 

[Undrave]

Nah - a DM who feels like that need only unleash a herd of Rust Monsters on to the party in a confined space...

lol true

 

[Lanefan]

Ya know, if the condition could be cured by succeeding on a few dice roll (wether it was like an Arcana check from someone or the target getting a few saving throws) where each roll could only happen if you spent the previous day doing nothing but being nursed in a safe place, I wouldn't find the condition that badly designed. The whole thing would feel like it was built to be a tension builder, something special to pop on your party for special occasion. If it worked like a 4e disease track, for exemple, it'd be understandable.

Thing is, this does away with the permanence aspect, though it's still better than nothing.

The problem is that if you do have the right spell in the part it goes from 'scary' to 'meh' in an instant.

On this, I agree. The answer - which won't be popular, but when has that ever stopped me before - is to make some spells or rituals not be castable outside of a temple or other safe-at-home surrounding.

So in this case it'd be not only do you need Greater Restoration to fix this, but it only works if cast in an established temple to the deity of the caster.

Hck, when I encountered it we were barely pushed for time. We had a few things to finish that day and then we were free to travel back to a bigger town and find a Cleric to fix the frontliners up. It took us one session. It didn't feel tense, it just felt frustrating.

Sure, that happens, but in this case I'd find it more relieving than frustrating: the potentially difficult choice of press on or go back is made for us by the fact there's nothing left to do in the field anyway.

 

[Undrave]

Thing is, this does away with the permanence aspect, though it's still better than nothing.

On this, I agree. The answer - which won't be popular, but when has that ever stopped me before - is to make some spells or rituals not be castable outside of a temple or other safe-at-home surrounding.

So in this case it'd be not only do you need Greater Restoration to fix this, but it only works if cast in an established temple to the deity of the caster.

Sure, that happens, but in this case I'd find it more relieving than frustrating: the potentially difficult choice of press on or go back is made for us by the fact there's nothing left to do in the field anyway.

Basically, I don't mind a condition that takes multiple steps to cure, but give me options to cure it. Maybe the Paladin has to spend five days spending all their Lay on Hands on the afflicted, maybe the Ranger can brew up a potion that lets you try to beat the affliction yourself, maybe you need to go to a specific kind of temple, as you say, for a special restorative ritual, maybe the Druid can seek out a nature spirit to bargain with...

But that there is one single spell that a caster can just pop out their butt the next morning is kinda insulting and unfun. Might as well make it fixable by a long rest at this point and save ink by cutting Greater Restoration.

 

[Andvari]

I think the issue is when magic is the only way to overcome specific challenges.

One terrible example of this is the Mummy’s rotting touch. Sure, your character may have spent resources to become skilled in Medicine, they may also have Expertise and a relevant background feature, and have spent money on a healer’s kit and vials of antidote. However, you are SoL since Mummy Rot is only curable by magical means.

But why?

The intent is likely the affliction is too potent to be cured by common medicine. Perhaps supernatural in nature. I don't have the 5E Monster Manual, but in 1E it specifically says it can only be cured by magic, and in 3E it is listed as a supernatural.

Though one could imagine a less dangerous version of the mummy for lower level play with a less dangerous version of Mummy Rot.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Ya know what this reminds me of? My relationship with Pokémon…

I love the franchise, always have fun with the games, but I no longer play it optimally. In single player, Pokémon games have two battle mode: Shift and Set. Shift, the default, allows you to know what Pokémon the opponent will send next and gives you a chance to switch, allowing you to field the perfect counter every time. Set, on the other hand, means that if you need to switch you need to do it manually, granting the opponent a free shot.

Furthermore, in single player, you can always open your bag to drop a Revive or a Full Restore to keep your ‘mons Fighting, usually while you sacrifice a less useful Pokémon.

And the most efficient way to go through the single player is to one shot everything with super effective moves from high offense Pokémon that are fast enough to go first.

I’ve played SO much Pokémon that I no longer find the easy way fun. I put my battlemode to set, I never use items to heal in battle, and I go out of my way to use lesser Pokémon, I prefer to set up using status moves on bulky Pokémon than just send glass canons (or at least my team isn’t JUST glass canons). I sometimes impose even further challenges on myself, like using only a certain type of Pokémon.

Maybe people want less magic because it gets boring to just obviate challenges with magic all the time.

There's always Pokemon challenge runs...


Or you could play a game in the same genre that makes adjustments to better suit experienced players...


Or just go hardcore (remember this guy?)


There are plenty of options if you're willing to look...