The Devil's in the Details: Slavicsek reveals the Pit Fiend in all its glory

Scribble said:
Heh... the vision in my head, is the pit fiend smiling devilishly (hah!) pointing... Then a look of utter terror entering the poor minion devil's eyes while it screams and claws the at floor to no avail... "wait wait master n- nooooo" <booom!>

Actually, I'm sort of imagining something like the final scenes of Time Bandits, when Evil is blowing up his minions and they're all relishing the thought. Except the one he turned into a sheepdog, which blew up with a rather plainitive howl, iirc....
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I like this, in general. All it's missing, for my purposes, is a For The PC's entry, for how to use this thing when it's on your side, but if Warlocks can summon them, perhaps that's good enonugh for me. :)


Assuming that I CR the monster properly (or, in 4e, work out its level) this looks like effective design. If it's cheap and lazy, so much the better.

I don't understand why the NPC build rules have to correspond in any way to the PC build rules, nor why either has to correspond to any actual ingame process that a creature goes through between being born and dying.

For a lot of people, this breaks verisimiltude.

The idea is that in the world, a Wizard looks like X. X, in D&D's case, is a character class.

If a Wizard looks like X, then all wizards should look like X. X should be designed for use with both PC's and monsters in mind.

However, 4e may decide that a Wizard looks like X if it's a PC, Y if it's a monster, Z if it's a villain, and have DM's juggle three different definitions of what a "Wizard" is in the game world.

This isn't inherently a terrible thing, because it lets you design X for PC use, Y for use in overlaying a monster, and Z for use in building a humanoid villain, and makes sure that all of them accomplish the goal of the Wizard enough to make it believable (fireballs and magic missiles and all).

However, it comes with a cost, and that cost is the fact that the Gnoll Wizard uses different rules than the Fire Giant Wizard, who uses different rules than the Halfling Wizard, who uses different rules than the hireling Wizard the PC's rented out at the local adventuring guild, who looks different than the Evil Wizard they are all fighting (even the Gnoll and the Fire Giant, who got recruited by the PC's halfway through the adventure, and, accordingly, changed what rules they operate under).

They're all called Wizards, and they're all supposed to represent the same thing in the game world (some nerd with a spellbook and a wand), but they use a different rule for each version because, possibly according to 4e's logic, the rules to make a PC Wizard wouldn't make a very good Fire Giant Wizard, because they're trying for different purposes. And if all you want a Wizard to do is shoot fireballs and magic missiles, and that's all any of these Wizards have in common, why not end the confusion dividing them up into different rules silos with different terms to make them truly different?

Somewhere between the outcry against "Simulationism!" and the hyperbolic example I had above, there's a comfortable middle ground that can hit both sides pretty well.

It's the question of "Do we design one Wizard that works well in a vast multitude of scenarios, knowing that someday, someone, somewhere, will come up with a scenario where it doesn't work?" (where the logic of 3e would have us headed in 4e) or "Do we design a variety of things we call Wizards that do different things depending upon where we put them, but share some broad similarities?"

Personally, I'd recommend using both approaches where it makes sense to use them. Thus, you have one "as-universal-as-possible" Wizard rule that you use to make Wizards in as many basic circumstances as you can theorize, and then, when you run into an area where it *doesn't* work, you alter the name a little and fluff it up a little and make a new rule for it.

4e seems to be embracing the latter approach even when the former approach would probably work just fine, whereas 3e definately focused on the former to the exclusion of the latter until late in the edition.
 


Kamikaze Midget said:
Personally, I'd recommend using both approaches where it makes sense to use them. Thus, you have one "as-universal-as-possible" Wizard rule that you use to make Wizards in as many basic circumstances as you can theorize, and then, when you run into an area where it *doesn't* work, you alter the name a little and fluff it up a little and make a new rule for it.

4e seems to be embracing the latter approach even when the former approach would probably work just fine, whereas 3e definately focused on the former to the exclusion of the latter until late in the edition.
Considering they've mentioned that monsters can still take class levels, isnt this essentially what they've done? For the more generic wizard monsters, you can just toss on a couple class levels. In other cases, when they're not really 'wizards' but fulfill a similar role, you can make tailored role monsters. You could also combine both for unique creatures. I really dont see the dichotomy there that you seem to be implying.
 

D.Shaffer said:
Considering they've mentioned that monsters can still take class levels, isnt this essentially what they've done? For the more generic wizard monsters, you can just toss on a couple class levels. In other cases, when they're not really 'wizards' but fulfill a similar role, you can make tailored role monsters. You could also combine both for unique creatures. I really dont see the dichotomy there that you seem to be implying.

Here is my problem, and again, we go back to the Hobgoblins in MMV as the likely prototype.

It's VERY likely for hobgoblin PCs to exist. They're normal humanoids with an interesting culture.

I cannot wrap my mind around telling a player, "Well, you can be a hobgoblin wizard, but you can't be a Hobgoblin Warcaster" (Unless, presumably, you start as one and eat the +3 ECL, making you a 7th level character with 4 hit dice and 2nd level spells). OK, I can wrap my mind around it, but it's irksome, foolish, and serves no good purpose.

"NPC only" classes, or pseudo-class-builds, offend my sensibilities. They remind me of some of the worst features of AD&D 1e. (3e NPC classes CAN betaken by players, they're just weak...). The Warcaster's abilities aren't innate, like a Dryad's, so it's not a matter of building them Savage Species style. They'd be better done by being a hobgoblin-only PrC, or as a set of 'replacement levels' for hobgoblin wizards, or any other mechanic which is based on the same rules concepts that PCs are based on. (There might be such mechanics 'hidden' in the warcaster, but, if so, why not reveal them in an appendix so DMs have the tools to make similar creatures without pure handwaving? At least 4e presumably does this.)
 

Lizard said:
Here is my problem, and again, we go back to the Hobgoblins in MMV as the likely prototype.

It's VERY likely for hobgoblin PCs to exist. They're normal humanoids with an interesting culture.

I cannot wrap my mind around telling a player, "Well, you can be a hobgoblin wizard, but you can't be a Hobgoblin Warcaster" (Unless, presumably, you start as one and eat the +3 ECL, making you a 7th level character with 4 hit dice and 2nd level spells). OK, I can wrap my mind around it, but it's irksome, foolish, and serves no good purpose.

"NPC only" classes, or pseudo-class-builds, offend my sensibilities. They remind me of some of the worst features of AD&D 1e. (3e NPC classes CAN betaken by players, they're just weak...). The Warcaster's abilities aren't innate, like a Dryad's, so it's not a matter of building them Savage Species style. They'd be better done by being a hobgoblin-only PrC, or as a set of 'replacement levels' for hobgoblin wizards, or any other mechanic which is based on the same rules concepts that PCs are based on. (There might be such mechanics 'hidden' in the warcaster, but, if so, why not reveal them in an appendix so DMs have the tools to make similar creatures without pure handwaving? At least 4e presumably does this.)

Hm. See, I tend to have pretty much your exact viewpoint on stuff, but having played around with writing a few of these, they work really well in play for quick-play combat monsters. Basically, I took Death Slaadi, and pumped up their Hit Dice and a few stats and such to what I felt would be appropriate for 25th-level monsters, and gave them the ability to cast a maximized Maw of Chaos with Intelligence added to damage at will, called them "Death Slaad Storms", and moved on to designing the rest of that encounter. As it turns out? It worked really well.

Now, can a PC Death Slaad be a Death Slaad Storm? Well, no. No they can't. But that didn't bother me, because the mechanical ways in which a Death Slaad Storm was superior to or different from a Death Slaad warmage were the direct result of being solely intended for a 4-round combat encounter. (I mean, over 4 rounds, a Death Slaad warmage would have a Sudden Maximize use, assumedly a Rod of Greater Maximize Spell, and something like 6 9th-level spells per day? So "maximized Maw of Chaos + Intelligence at will" was effectively the same thing.) If I had intended for the Storm to be a recurring NPC or recruitable by the party or playable as a PC, I would not have statted it in that fashion.

However, I likewise hated the Hobgoblins in MM5, because of essentially all the reasons you stated. Monsters statted like that, especially "classed" monsters, don't give me options, and present that trimmed, combat-only statblock as the one mechanical truth. In this way, I feel that a designer, who's being paid to do this and doesn't have the knowledge to tell how people will be inspired to use his creations, is obliged to make them as generally useful as possible. DMs do it for fun and are in just the right place to know when expanded rules are needed.

(By the way, statblock advice I wish I could have given someone back in 2000 when 3.0 was new? Bold SLAs or spellbook spells that are worth a monster or NPC's time of day in a 5-round death match, and underline SLAs or spellbook spells that monsters or NPCs should pre-buff themselves with. I liked having monsters who could bring to bear a wide variety of spell effects, many useless for combat? But honestly, a quick reference to tell me "these are the spells that actually kill things" is the least you could do.)
 
Last edited:

Imban said:
Hm. See, I tend to have pretty much your exact viewpoint on stuff, but having played around with writing a few of these, they work really well in play for quick-play combat monsters. Basically, I took Death Slaadi, and pumped up their Hit Dice and a few stats and such to what I felt would be appropriate for 25th-level monsters, and gave them the ability to cast a maximized Maw of Chaos with Intelligence added to damage at will, called them "Death Slaad Storms", and moved on to designing the rest of that encounter. As it turns out? It worked really well.

Now, can a PC Death Slaad be a Death Slaad Storm? Well, no. No they can't. But that didn't bother me, because the mechanical ways in which a Death Slaad Storm was superior to or different from a Death Slaad warmage were the direct result of being solely intended for a 4-round combat encounter. (I mean, over 4 rounds, a Death Slaad warmage would have a Sudden Maximize use, assumedly a Rod of Greater Maximize Spell, and something like 6 9th-level spells per day? So "maximized Maw of Chaos + Intelligence at will" was effectively the same thing.) If I had intended for the Storm to be a recurring NPC or recruitable by the party or playable as a PC, I would not have statted it in that fashion.

A lot of it comes down to preference. Weird Alien Critters, esp. things like Slaads, might well give rise to odd mutations. A Death Storm is born a Death Storm; end of story. But when you say "Hobgoblin warcasters are the result of intense training", and the PC says "I want me some of that training!" and the DM has to say "Uh...no. Can't work. Take your wizard levels and LIKE them!", I have issues. (And if you say, "OK, suck down the ECL, if that's what you want", how do you then "upgrade" them to WarSouls?)

I admit we're talking taste here. And I know a lot of people don't hug themselves in glee over mountains-o-crunch the way I do. I'd be happy if someone said, "Well, there's a lot of Warcaster-like stuff in the 4e MM. But you know what? We didn't just pull it all out of our asses, and we've got 10 pages of rules for that, just for crunch-happy DMs, that will be posted on Gleemax once the book is released, so you can see how everything breaks down in ways you can use to build NPCs or PCs. Those who don't have crunchgasms can just fake it using the MM as a guideline."
 


Lizard said:
A lot of it comes down to preference. Weird Alien Critters, esp. things like Slaads, might well give rise to odd mutations. A Death Storm is born a Death Storm; end of story. But when you say "Hobgoblin warcasters are the result of intense training", and the PC says "I want me some of that training!" and the DM has to say "Uh...no. Can't work. Take your wizard levels and LIKE them!", I have issues. (And if you say, "OK, suck down the ECL, if that's what you want", how do you then "upgrade" them to WarSouls?)

Oh, no, I was assuming that Death Slaad Storms were the result of intense training. I just whipped up that statblock on the fly because "can cast Maw of Chaos and add Intelligence to its damage at will" was actually an honest rough approximation of what they would be if they were PC-trained. (And in that situation, I'd really just say "Well, okay, you can roll another character who's a Death Slaad gestalted with Warmage if you really want.", since we were playing an epic-level gestalt campaign at the time anyway.)

I admit we're talking taste here. And I know a lot of people don't hug themselves in glee over mountains-o-crunch the way I do. I'd be happy if someone said, "Well, there's a lot of Warcaster-like stuff in the 4e MM. But you know what? We didn't just pull it all out of our asses, and we've got 10 pages of rules for that, just for crunch-happy DMs, that will be posted on Gleemax once the book is released, so you can see how everything breaks down in ways you can use to build NPCs or PCs. Those who don't have crunchgasms can just fake it using the MM as a guideline."

I'd be really happy with that, too, since I also hug myself over mountains of crunch. I just see the ad hoc assigning of class or class-like abilities to monsters as a very useful DMing tool, especially when you're creating what you know are "trash mobs" - things that have no real existence before they met the party and will end their existence eighteen to twenty-four seconds later at the hands of the party. For actual rules writing by designers, I'm of the opinion that one man's trash mob is another's NPC ally is another's villain is another's player race, and thus I'd like to have the information I need for all of those.
 

Teleport as Movement Type:

This implies it's a move action for the devil to teleport. (Will it provoke AoOs?)

What happens if he uses this movement type for overland-travel? Does he remateiralize every 10 squares? Or does he just state how long/fast he wants to travel and the appears in the distance he wanted to be?

If it's the rematerializing, I am totally considering a house rule that allowed him teleporting longer distance at something like half "speed", but any distance.
The "blinking" teleportation move doesn't fit my idea of an over-land travelling pit fiend.

But it totally fits my imagination of a Blink Dog or Displacer Beast!
 

Remove ads

Top