The Devil's in the Details: Slavicsek reveals the Pit Fiend in all its glory

[frankthedm]

Well, here is How D&D minis will be handling sliding in 4E.

Of course that leaves the question 'can the pit fiend Airburst devils over the party?'

 

[helium3]

Yes, REALLY.

Mearls has said that monsters Can Take Class Levels because, and I quote, "That's just too fun not to do."

Where did he say that? I guess there's a new design and development article that I need to read. Is it in there?

 

[frankthedm]

Where did he say that? I guess there's a new design and development article that I need to read. Is it in there?

IIRC he said it a while back. It might of been a podcast or a board post, but Mearls has mentioned that already.

 

[Fifth Element]

All in my opinion, of course.

On this point, at least, we can agree.

 

[helium3]

IIRC he said it a while back. It might of been a podcast or a board post, but Mearls has mentioned that already.

Okay. I listened to the October podcast (which is the one on monsters) back in October so it's been a while. I tried to listen to it again yesterday and it was more difficult than the last time for some reason.

I still don't see how you can just slap levels onto a monster if they're built using two different systems. But, maybe that's just because I don't understand the magic of 4E.

 

[Rechan]

Where did he say that? I guess there's a new design and development article that I need to read. Is it in there?

Matthew Sernett:

"We are not going back to a 1st or 2nd edition means of creating monsters. Those editions had no standards for monster design. Everyone just eyeballed it and hoped it was fair and fun (often it wasn't).

Third edition gives the illusion of fairness by giving you formulas to rely on, but you can use all the formulas perfectly and easily end up with an unfair or unfun monster. Advancing monsters by hit dice is a great example. Depending on its type and ability scores, the CR raise you give it according to the formulas might work out okay, but just as often the monster ends up too tough for its CR or too weak.

CR is often just a shot in the dark. We usually get it right, but I'm betting you can think of some critters that are way out of their weight class.

For each level of play we're devising a range of numbers for monsters that provide fairness and fun. Those numbers are based on what the PCs bring to the fight in terms of their potency and defenses, and upon the general role in the fight a monster is likely to be in.

Thus, the ogre, who is most likely to be the tough brute in melee, uses the “brute” range of numbers for its level. The numbers in that range and their distribution are designed to be fair and fun in a fight while at the same time allowing the artillery monster (like maybe a gnoll archer) of the same level to feel different but still be fair and fun. Of course, an ogre can chuck spears and that gnoll archer can charge up and hit you, but the numbers are devised in a fashion to produce great results when the monsters are used how people normally would use them. The ogre that’s in your face has more hit points than the gnoll archer that is using the ogre as a shield.

Changing a monster will be easier and more fair that ever. Rather than jumping through hoops and doing a lot of math with uncertain results, you can just look at the numbers for where you want to be and put the monster there. You might get there by adding a class, by "advancing" a monster, by adding a template, or some combination. The key is that you'll know where you need to get to in order to make the monster work right."

 

[FourthBear]

I'll note that I do recall a forum post that Mearls noted that you can indeed add class levels onto a monster. Frankly, looking at the Pit Fiend stats, I can't see anything at all to prevent it. Monsters have ability scores, defenses, skills and pretty much everything that a class could add to. If classes are like they were in 3e and primarily additive, you should just be able to add on the class abilities and skills as appropriate. It might be a bit clumsy, as in 3e, but I see nothing that should prevent it.

 

[Just Another User]

So to recap;
Designers saying one particular thing amongst many being presented is "cool" = acceptable AND potentially useful.
Designers saying everything is "cool" = assumed and therefore redundant.
Designers saying everything is "cool" multiple times = just plain weak


All in my opinion, of course.

"being cool is like being a lady, if you have to say you are it, you are not" (Paraphrased from something that I don't really remember now. )

 

[helium3]

Changing a monster will be easier and more fair that ever. Rather than jumping through hoops and doing a lot of math with uncertain results, you can just look at the numbers for where you want to be and put the monster there. You might get there by adding a class, by "advancing" a monster, by adding a template, or some combination. The key is that you'll know where you need to get to in order to make the monster work right."

Thanks for the quote.

So basically, if my monster is a controller I can add levels of wizard to it, and as long as the final numbers are in the range of those for a controller monster of the level I'm shooting for, there won't be any problems?

It's an interesting idea and I'm real curious to see how it works in practice.

 

[The Crippler]

I am reading the Pit Fiend`s ability to detonate minions as only applying to the devils he has currently summoned.

Irresistible command affects one allied devil of lower level than the pit fiend

Infernal Summons conjures a group of devil allies.

It could be an obtuse interpretation, but the reason why I think ally might be specific to his summoned devils is that perhaps the ability to simply detonate any random Imp and make it do as much damage as say an Ice Devil is a tad askew. Look at the Pit Fiends summoning choices:
8 legion devil legionnaires (level 21), or
2 war devils (level 22), or
1 war devil (level 22) and 4 legion devil legionnaires (level 21)

There`s nothing that`s altogether a pushover there. Otherwise, give him the ability to summon 3d12 Imps and then start dropping smart bombs all over the place.