The Divine/Arcane Magic Split in Fantasy Literature

[Loonook]

Pretty much everything listed here shows the solid backing of real world religious information separating spells and sorcery. However, there is also a solid basis of the use of shamanism, ancestral worship, and placation of other creatures in the same period. Look into the concept of the Elf Charm, or similar early Proto-Christian and Druidic minglings of local ancestral and spirit placation = Divine Magic.

Personally I like some of the concepts presented across other stories and books eries. I 'm thinking most of A Song of Ice and Fire and its presentation of the Maegi, Blod Priests, Greenseers, and Pyromancers, and Maesters as a mixture of common woodscraft and medicine combined with the occasional use of mysticism. Maesters can heal with poultices, draughts, etc. but there are also those who bear the Valyrian steel link such as the Magus. I also like the idea upthread regarding the Schools of Roke, or even that there are spells and skills that will be more useful to some than others. How useful is fireball to an urban sorcerer in the midst of large flammable structures filled with enough commoners to scream "BURN HIM!" and make his studies end abruptly?

How about a battlemage? You would be happy to have the ability to heal. Perhaps even 'evil' spells could be used by priests (creating undead through the 'breath of life' in ASOIAF comes to mind, or the calling of demons to commune with by numerous 'good' wizards and even traditional 'priests' in too many sources to count).

To sum up, there are precedents in history and fantasy that blur the line between magic both Arcane and Divine, along with magic and science. It would make more sense in a game where you are not going to be very godsheavy to use this blurring to your advantage. YMMV, but if you don't make it easy to munchkin up the CoD greatest hits for your mage, and change around anything that seems to be too heavy, be my guest .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To sum up, there are precedents in history and fantasy that blur the line between magic both Arcane and Divine, along with magic and science.

Except that D&D hasn't really adopted much of those traditions in anything but the most trivial senses. I mean, D&D's support for shamanistic/animist PCs is really fairly poor, mechanically speaking. The OA shaman got closest with its ability to converse with spirits, but that's about it.

 

[Loonook]

Except that D&D hasn't really adopted much of those traditions in anything but the most trivial senses. I mean, D&D's support for shamanistic/animist PCs is really fairly poor, mechanically speaking. The OA shaman got closest with its ability to converse with spirits, but that's about it.

Mechanics don't necessarily support it? Commune, Find the Path, Glyphs, Circles, Conjuring/Calling in all of its myriad forms, Speak with Dead, Speak with Animals, Legend Lore, Identify, Dream, Locate Creature/Object, Hallow/Unhallow, Augury... Just off the top of my head have a very 'shamanistic' possibility. Again all ideas are thematic, and I feel that that is something hugely missing from our game. Remember when Spheres and group spellbooks existed? Or spell rarity levels? I kinda miss those days of supermagic being extremely rare and requiring people to pull a PhD in Thaumaturgy to pull out that miracle .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Kunimatyu]

You bring up Conan, but that's actually a pretty good example - Howard had a good god in that named Mitra (probably based on the real world one) that battled the forces of another, evil god, Set (ditto)

Mitra is mostly just mentioned, but in one story a queen prays to him and Mitra directs her to Conan. In another, priests used magical powers to hide him. (I think it was Hour of the Dragon)

And in all those stories, the priests aren't adventuring. They make good plot components, though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mechanics don't necessarily support it? Commune, Find the Path, Glyphs, Circles, Conjuring/Calling in all of its myriad forms, Speak with Dead, Speak with Animals, Legend Lore, Identify, Dream, Locate Creature/Object, Hallow/Unhallow, Augury... Just off the top of my head have a very 'shamanistic' possibility.

I agree with you on only some of those- speaking with the dead, for instance, isn't unique to shamanistic mythologies- and overall, "spellcasters" in shamanistic traditions tend to have spirits do their bidding...or honoring pacts of mutual binding duties.

IMHO, the OA Shaman comes closest in 3Ed, closely followed by the Spirit Shaman and Druid...maybe the Binder & Sha'ir. But they're not all that close.

 

[Loonook]

I agree with you on only some of those- speaking with the dead, for instance, isn't unique to shamanistic mythologies- and overall, "spellcasters" in shamanistic traditions tend to have spirits do their bidding...or honoring pacts of mutual binding duties.

IMHO, the OA Shaman comes closest in 3Ed, closely followed by the Spirit Shaman and Druid...maybe the Binder & Sha'ir. But they're not all that close.

Never said it was only those Danny .

But Sha'ir was always about My L'il Gen anyways so it was more like having a CPA spirit to keep track of your accounts in the City of Brass.

Slainte,

-Loonook

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Never said it was only those Danny .

Never said you did- just that of the proffered examples, I only agreed with a few.