The druid is not fighting!!! LONG!

[Ridley's Cohort]

I find it amusing that some people are so grasping at straws about justifying the druid's cowardice that they keep bringing up the psywarrior not fighting defensively.

We really lack the information to say whether fighting defensively would have helped the psywarriors defense. We really don't know without good guestimates of the ACs, HPs, and to hit bonuses of the combatants. To pretend to know otherwise seems pretty desperate to me.

It could be a suboptimal option if, for example, he had a chance to finish off an opponent. Or he thought he comrade in arms might deign to actually lend him a hand.

 

[ced1106]

Having heard this, I can say with almost 100% certainty that his druid being skeptical of going into melee is due to role-playing, not meta-gaming on the part of the player.

Ditto.

One thought is to either set up combat to **ignore** the druid, or, better yet, make the **adventure** more suited for **all** the players, not just the combat-oriented ones.

So here's my next question: If you were to run an adventure that de-emphasized combat and played more towards the druid's player's roleplaying, how would the rest of the group react?

Meanwhile, getcherself a copy of Robin's Laws to Good Game Mastering...!


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[Tsyr]

I find it amusing that some people are so grasping at straws about justifying the druid's cowardice that they keep bringing up the psywarrior not fighting defensively.

We really lack the information to say whether fighting defensively would have helped the psywarriors defense. We really don't know without good guestimates of the ACs, HPs, and to hit bonuses of the combatants. To pretend to know otherwise seems pretty desperate to me.

It could be a suboptimal option if, for example, he had a chance to finish off an opponent.

I dunno... Sounds like we might not be the only ones grasping at straws here.

Or he thought he comrade in arms might deign to actually lend him a hand.

But, like I said, did he honestly have any real reason to expect that?

 

[likuidice]

ok, firstly, one word: roleplaying.

if this campaign is a hack and slash affair, with little social interaction, and this was pointed out to the player of the druid before the campaign started, then the player should ditch the character for one with less personality and more munchkin stats.

however if the campaign does feature interaction, then all is well and good. the druid can use his nature and wilderness skills in roleplaying encounters. it is up to the dm to provide encounters tailored to his players, if he wants a bunch of fighters, or a bunch of rogues, he should state this at the beginning of the campaign. if every dungeon is full of traps, and no monsters, when all the players are playing fighters, something is amiss, personally, if that happened, i'd get some other bunch of heroes with the skills to deal with that situation to go into the dungeon.

another thing, the druid isn't pulling his weight in combat, tough. the character uses his spells to help out, if the character is being played as a wilderness man and spellcaster, what right do the other characters have to tell him to fight? if they know the characters BAB, punish them. that's metagaming, especially if the character hasn't displayed any aptitude in combat. what alignments are these guys? constantly pushing someone who lacks the ability to defend himself adequately is verging on chaotic neutral at best. the druid can't wear the fancy armour, or wield the powerful weapons that the combat monkeys do. he casts spells and does nature stuff.

also, are the fighter types pulling their weight outside of combat? whats this a wilderness encounter? have the druid do nothing. "what, you didn't take animal empathy? you can't cast animal friendship or speak with plants?" make an encounter the party can't bypass without the druid, and advise the druid to do nothing, if the characters whine, then tough, they aren't pulling their weight, when they complain that wilderness work isn't their job, turn the tables..."oh, isn't it? my word, isn't that a shame, what is your job exactly?" "fighting, idiot" "i see, so, my job is wilderness work, and your job is fighting?"
end of story, make them appreciate the druid.

 

[buzzard]

ok, firstly, one word: roleplaying.

This is a two edged sword. If I were in a party and a member was more concerned with avoiding ANY damage rather than keeping someone alive, I would not keep him in the party. That's role playing as well.

also, are the fighter types pulling their weight outside of combat? whats this a wilderness encounter? have the druid do nothing. "what, you didn't take animal empathy? you can't cast animal friendship or speak with plants?" make an encounter the party can't bypass without the druid, and advise the druid to do nothing, if the characters whine, then tough, they aren't pulling their weight, when they complain that wilderness work isn't their job, turn the tables..."oh, isn't it? my word, isn't that a shame, what is your job exactly?" "fighting, idiot" "i see, so, my job is wilderness work, and your job is fighting?"
end of story, make them appreciate the druid.

So the DM has to force the party to appreciate the Druid. He has to cater to the way in which the guy isn't a team player? Rubbish.

The simple solution is apparent. The other party members role play abandoning the Druid somewhere. He is a selfish git and has no business asking people to do his dirty work for him. You did read the post about the Druid having the party go on missions which were in his interest right?

The Druid has every right to play his character as he wishes. However the rest of the party should damn well enforce the consequences of his actions. All of the rubbish about the druid being a 'true roleplayer' is making me queasy. I left my hip waders at home so stop adding to the pile.

Anyone who has been slamming the Psychic Warrior should re-read the posts by arbados. He and the Devoted Defender were holding the enemy back so they couldn't get swarmed and have the rear echelon get wiped out. He did not have an option to retreat. Fighting defensively does very little(+2 AC woo hoo!). It is possible that total defense might have worked, but even that can be questionable depending on the opposition.

Of course all of this blaming the PW for such things smacks of blaming the victim. He was doing his job. He was counting on another party member to do his job. Only one of them came up short. If I were in that party, I'd ditch the Druid like skunked beer.

buzzard

 

[likuidice]

i did not say the dm had to force the characters to appreciate the druid. however i did say that they should be put in a position where the druid can shine, one that the other characters cannot bypass. if they still refuse to appreciate the druid after that, the druid should leave THEM for being hypocrites. it is their choice in the end, but the dm should make a balanced number of encounters that everyone gets to shine in. and the druid is a team player, he's the catcher, the outfielder, the guy who outside of the action sequences saves the party. a team does not mean that the character has to do what evberybody else does, only half as well, and likely dies for it. even the military has a breakdown of groups, theres commandos, regular soldiers, leadership, intelligence, half of those people don't get involved in direct combat, but will you honestly tell me that they should? a code cracker should go into a warzone and fight, poorly, instead of being back in his bunker, cracking the codes that may turn the tide of war? it's an analogy, but i hope, an effective one.

 

[buzzard]

i did not say the dm had to force the characters to appreciate the druid. however i did say that they should be put in a position where the druid can shine, one that the other characters cannot bypass. if they still refuse to appreciate the druid after that, the druid should leave THEM for being hypocrites. it is their choice in the end, but the dm should make a balanced number of encounters that everyone gets to shine in. and the druid is a team player, he's the catcher, the outfielder, the guy who outside of the action sequences saves the party. a team does not mean that the character has to do what evberybody else does, only half as well, and likely dies for it. even the military has a breakdown of groups, theres commandos, regular soldiers, leadership, intelligence, half of those people don't get involved in direct combat, but will you honestly tell me that they should? a code cracker should go into a warzone and fight, poorly, instead of being back in his bunker, cracking the codes that may turn the tide of war? it's an analogy, but i hope, an effective one.

You analogy is flawed in that the support people whom you refer to are REMFs. They don't act as part of the actual sharp end of the spear, and have no business being anywhere near combat. If they do wonder into the combat zone, they become a liability because they don't have the aptitude and training to keep themselves alive. Thus, someone else has to put himself in danger to keep them alive. This druid is a REMF. He should be treated as a REMF, and left behind. If he wants to be part of the combat team (reaping the rewards of treasure and experience), he had better act like one.

buzzard

 

[Fenes 2]

a code cracker should go into a warzone and fight, poorly, instead of being back in his bunker, cracking the codes that may turn the tide of war? it's an analogy, but i hope, an effective one.

If he does happen into a fight I sure would expect him to use his minimal combat training to save a wounded comrade.

Tactically speaking, the druid could have cast a cure spell, held the charge then moved to the PsyWar to touch him - if the Psywar was holding back the enemies it would not have been that risky, and it would have only taken one action. Unless the druid was wounded I don't see many enemies dropping him with one AoO - and retreating the next round can be done without incurring an AoO.

While I am a staunch supporter of roleplaying, I would have told the druid player to get his PC to the PsyWar - roleplaying stops where it hampers the fun of others, and letting a fellow PC die is a big no-no imho - unless tehre are special circumstances, like the infamous chaotic evil "I kill peasants for fun and you gotta spring me from prison cause I am a PC" murderer.

It is not that I am against playing a noncombattant - I am against playing a PC that has the means to save another, and doing nothing.

 

[likuidice]

fair point. but, does everyone in this party fight in melee? including the rogue and mage? if not, why are they not getting chewed out too? the character seems to work in combat by casting spells, he attacks if he's threatened, but doesn't otherwise engage in melee. just like a mage would do. he casts spells, doesn't appear to have shown any combat aptitude and the party knows how he fights, and their tactics should incorporate this, they should not constantly expect the character to do anything differently. and in the psywarrior example, he was 20 feet away from a guy who downed the most powerful warrior in the party, now this druid must have seen the p[sywar beat up no end of things, and he goes down to a superior combatant. the druid is supposed to wander in, and heal a companion that is twice the combatant he is? strangely, theres no mention of what the rogue or mage were doing in this encounter either, nor this kick ass npc. surely the mage could have pulled something to get the guy some breathing space? the rogue could have distracted the drow, the devoted defender, obviously not defending anyone, and therefore failing at his job description, could have held this beastly drow off for long enough, allowing the druid to heal his fallen ally? and if the druid was expected to be in combat, pulling his weight, why were his companions not whacking stuff too? we've heard a lot about the druid, but little about his companions.

 

[likuidice]

and the psywar appears to have been partially to blame for waiting until he was about to drop before squealing for a medic. if he could tell that the guy he was fighting was a superior combatant, why wait until then to yell for help? and i agree with holding the charge, i had that thought earlier. however, the psywar would still be at risk, being prone, and back to the condition he was in before he squealed for a medic.