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The Dual Class (ver. 2)

Exen Trik

First Post
This is just a simple attempt to create a more 50/50 even split form of multiclassing, without creating some kind of complicated alternate multiclassing system to do so. This is actually a single class, that just combines features of two others. Of course we don't have all the information on the classes yet so there might yet be complications, and I might have missed something important besides, but as is it seems to work.

Let me know what you think! :)



The Dual Class
"I've broken the mold, and now I've broken you."

Stats

Role: Any or Hybrid
Power Source: Any or Hybrid

Hit Points at 1st level: Use the lesser value from either component class
Hit points per level: Use the lesser value from either component class
Healing surges: Use the lesser value from either component class
Defense Bonus: Choose one of the defenses from either component class

Weapons: All types provided by both component classes
Armor: All types provided by both component classes
Trained Skills: The two skills granted by Walk Two Paths, plus three others. These can be chosen from the skill list of either component class.


Class Features

Walk Two Paths
A dual class character gains the benefit of any two different multiclass feats, even if the character does not meet the prerequisites. This does not prevent him from taking a multiclass feat normally, but it cannot be either of the same versions provided by this ability

Superior Dabbler
For the abilities granted by the feat benefits of Walk Two Paths, the dual classed character grains additional uses. For any power or class feature provided once per encounter, the dual classed character can use it twice per encounter. For granted daily abilities, they similarly become usable twice per day, but no more than once per encounter.

Hybrid Technique
You may choose one build option from each component class, such as the Rangers fighting styles or Rogue Tactics, and gain the full benefit of each.


Powers

At-Will
Choose one at-will power from each component class

Encounter, Daily and Utility
These powers may be freely chosen from either component class power list.



Edit: Updated to version 2, numerous changes
 
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malcolm_n

Adventurer
That's a pretty sweet Gestalt Idea for 4e, and the game isn't even out yet. hehe.
Intuitive, easy to read, but a major buff to controller combos when we get another (HP). Maybe add a small clause to include the lower hp if both classes give it? Also, would it be okay with you if we used this along with our Original creations as a play option?
 

Exen Trik

First Post
malcolm_n said:
That's a pretty sweet Gestalt Idea for 4e, and the game isn't even out yet. hehe.
Intuitive, easy to read, but a major buff to controller combos when we get another (HP). Maybe add a small clause to include the lower hp if both classes give it?
I was considering that, but I didn't want to complicate it too much right away, and the loss of other class features might be a fair exchange. I thought an average would be the safest... but this may be a case where 'best of either' is the better option. I'll change it to that.

Edit: Actually, I ended up making an exception if both classes have higher or lower hp, so now both dual defenders and dual controllers have appropriate hp.

Also, would it be okay with you if we used this along with our Original creations as a play option?
Sure, use this however you like!
 
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katahn

First Post
Interesting, and yes a definite gestalt... but I have a question. Why bother with special rules for a combined class and document it as such? Just make a gestalting rules if desired.

4e Gestalt

Choose any two classes and combine them into a single class for advancement purposes. All starting values use the "best of" approach for each class, so a gestalt character gets the best starting hit points, best number of healing surges, best health advancement, and so on.

Class features of each class are fully available to the gestalt character, and build options for each class should be selected with any common features retained on a "best of" approach as above.

The gestalt has +1 number of abilities available of each type per level (so +1 number of at-will, +1 number of encounter, and so on). All abilities are fully selectable from either class. (Not getting double-powers because class powers feel like they are already quite powerful, and more powers produce more total power than a straight linear relationship).

Feats that have a class prerequisite are available if either of the gestalt's classes match it. A gestalt fighter/cleric could take any cleric class feat or any fighter class feat. The same is true for paragon and epic paths.

Gestalt characters do not multiclass using feats. A gestalt character may elect to multiclass instead of taking a paragon path.
 

malcolm_n

Adventurer
katahn said:
Interesting, and yes a definite gestalt... but I have a question. Why bother with special rules for a combined class and document it as such? Just make a gestalting rules if desired.

4e Gestalt

Choose any two classes and combine them into a single class for advancement purposes. All starting values use the "best of" approach for each class, so a gestalt character gets the best starting hit points, best number of healing surges, best health advancement, and so on.

Class features of each class are fully available to the gestalt character, and build options for each class should be selected with any common features retained on a "best of" approach as above.

The gestalt has +1 number of abilities available of each type per level (so +1 number of at-will, +1 number of encounter, and so on). All abilities are fully selectable from either class. (Not getting double-powers because class powers feel like they are already quite powerful, and more powers produce more total power than a straight linear relationship).

Feats that have a class prerequisite are available if either of the gestalt's classes match it. A gestalt fighter/cleric could take any cleric class feat or any fighter class feat. The same is true for paragon and epic paths.

Gestalt characters do not multiclass using feats. A gestalt character may elect to multiclass instead of taking a paragon path.
Your suggestion would work great as a true gestalt (read: High powered) option for characters. But for somebody wanting to flavor their character for a regular game, the OP option is viable.
 

Exen Trik

First Post
Ok, the combos were looking a bit unbalanced with Superior Dabbling sometimes giving the best features of both classes, so I toned it down to only apply to one, and made each effect specific. Also, dual classed wizards ended up getting a full additional at-will power with the old rule which started looking better than a normal wizard, so I gave them cantrips instead.

Some issues that I had:
For the warlord, I presume it works the same way as the clerics healing word, and is normally usable twice per encounter. I'm somewhat leery about the rangers benefit, because they don't seem to get much else for class features anyway, but I don't know where else I could go with it. I'm a little unsure what the warlocks feat does anyway, but it's curse ability seems to be available once per encounter (how else could it use the pact?) and it is in line with the other striker powers so I went the same way with it.

It looks better to me, but I'm still only eyeballing it balance-wise. If anyone tries this out I'd love to hear about it.
 

muffin_of_chaos

First Post
I'd go with the same rule for Encounter/Daily/Utility powers that you have for At-Will powers. Albeit it doesn't affect 1st level.
The Hitpoints and armor are also slightly skewed, as I suspect Wizard will be a very popular part of the combination.
 

Exen Trik

First Post
Alright I revised it again, setting it at a solid 2.0 version. Barring some new info on multiclassing, class features or the like this should be the last update before the books come out. Changes in this version:

-Now the effect of superior dabbler is weaker but effects both multiclass feats equally
-Hit points and healing surges are the lesser value of either class.
-Reduced added skills from 4 to 3, limited them to component classes list.
-Various wording changes

muffin_of_chaos said:
I'd go with the same rule for Encounter/Daily/Utility powers that you have for At-Will powers. Albeit it doesn't affect 1st level.
The ability to freely access each classes power list, and take advantage of two classes build options, is pretty much the point of the class. It's exactly what the standard multiclassing options don't allow. I'm not too sure how I could cut it anyways, even at higher levels with more powers it would be awkward.

The Hitpoints and armor are also slightly skewed, as I suspect Wizard will be a very popular part of the combination.
Yeah I weighed the pros and cons for different builds, and came to the same conclusion. The fighter/wizards will need to be happy with armor and powers for defense, and likely will be investing in the toughness feat.
 

Exen Trik

First Post
Thanks to the new warlord at will powers, I can create a complete sample dual classed character! Billy here is focused around combat movement, both of his allies and himself. And since his allies are a gang of bloodthirsty halfling rogues, this proves to be very effective.

Enjoy!


Billy Flintwick
Local Halfling Bandit Leader
"Say hello to my little friends!"

Stats
Level 1 Dual Class (Rogue/Warlord)

Role: Hybrid (Striker/Leader)
Power Source: Martial

Race: Halfling
Size: Small
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Str: 14 (+2)
Dex: 17 (+3)
Con: 12 (+1)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 11 (+0)
Cha: 20 (+5)

Hit Points: 24
Bloodied: 12
Healing Surges: 7 (+6 hit points)
Armor Class: 17 (26 vs opportunity attacks)
Defenses: Fort 12, Ref 17, Will 15
Skills: Thievery (+10), Intimidate (+10), Streetwise (+10), Acrobatics (+10), Stealth (+8)
Weapons: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged
Armor: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail; light shield

Equipment
Weapons: Short Sword (+5 attack, 1d6+2 damage, Light Blade)
Armor: Hide (+3 AC), Light Shield (+1 AC, +1 Ref)

Racial and Class Features
Nimble Reaction: +2 bonus to AC for opportunity attacks
Second Chance: Cause an enemy to reroll attack against self - 1/encounter
Bold: +5 on saving throws vs fear
Sneak Attack: +2d6 against target you have combat advantage against - 2/encounter
Inspiring Word*: Lets target use a healing surge, plus a bonus to healing of 1d6+5 - 2/day (1/encounter)
Artful Dodger: +5 bonus to AC for opportunity attacks
Inspiring Presence: Ally gains "6 hit points when using an action point
*Effect is yet to be confirmed

Feats
Defensive Mobility: +2 bonus to AC for opportunity attacks


Powers
Note: these assume a short sword is used

Commander's Strike - Warlord Attack 1
At-Will - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack
against the target
Hit: Ally’s basic attack damage +2

Deft Strike - Rogue Attack 1
At-Will - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: +6 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6+3 damage.

Positioning Strike - Rogue Attack 1
Encounter - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +6 vs. Will
Hit: 1d6+3 damage, and you slide the target 5 squares.

Pin the Foe - Warlord Attack 1
Daily - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee - weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: +5 vs AC
Hit: 3d6+2 Damage; for duration of encounter target cannot shift while two allies or ally and self are adjacent to it.
 
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malcolm_n

Adventurer
Lol, I had a whole thing written up here, but lost track of it, being tired and all. I'll post something soon. For now, I was gonna write up some dualies to see how they compare to stand-alones
 

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