The Elegance of d20 and D&D

[Hussar]

Same can be said for grappling.

Now that I don't really understand. Make an opposed attack roll. How is that not simplicity? Maybe because grapple comes up in my game fairly often that I don't notice it any more. But, I've never really had a problem with it.

Inellegant would be a system where your d20 roll, if it hits, gives you a set damage based on the die roll you made. In addition, adding skills to your grappling ability allows you to shift the effect up or down the chart, resulting in different damage.

 

[bento]

Grapple is not that simple. Page 156 of the PHB:

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity - you provoke an AoO from your target. If the AoO deals damage you fail. If the AoO misses or fails to deal damage you go to step 2.
Step 2: Grab - you make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail your attempt to grapple failes. If you succeed...
Step 3: Hold - you make opposed grapple checks as a free action. If you succeed, you and the target are now grappling and you can deal damage. If you lose you fail to start grapple.
Step 4: Maintain Grapple - each succeeding round you must first make an opposed grapple check before you can take an action while grappling, including moving the target, drawing a light weapon and others.

Last March on the WoTC site they spent four weeks going through all the particulars on grappling.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a

Hussar, if you're making an opposed attack role to determine a grapple then you're using a house rule and not the PHB.

 

[Nightfall]

I like Psion's last post the best so far in this thread. Good going Psion!

 

[Hussar]

Step 3: Hold - you make opposed grapple checks as a free action. If you succeed, you and the target are now grappling and you can deal damage. If you lose you fail to start grapple

Sorry, I should have said opposed grapple check. Of course an opposed grapple check is BAB+Str+size mods if any - which is an opposed attack check with size mods. My bad for not being specific enough.

As I said, I know that WOTC just did a lengthy thing on this. I just never understood the problems. Maybe it's because my players write down their grapple check number. Since grappling is frequently done by something that doesn't draw AOO's like Imp Grapple or Imp Grab, Step 1 is usually a wash. Step 2 is a touch attack - not tricky. Step 3 is an opposed check. Step 4 comes in later in the game.

It just never seemed all that difficult to me, but, then I run fairly combat heavy games, so these rules become pretty simple when you use them a lot.

 

[Nightfall]

*cheers on Psion*

 

[The Shaman]

Watch out for those feisty panty elementals!

I remember those from Uncle Buck's dungeon...

 

[Odhanan]

Grapple is not that simple. Page 156 of the PHB:

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity - you provoke an AoO from your target. If the AoO deals damage you fail. If the AoO misses or fails to deal damage you go to step 2.
Step 2: Grab - you make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail your attempt to grapple failes. If you succeed...
Step 3: Hold - you make opposed grapple checks as a free action. If you succeed, you and the target are now grappling and you can deal damage. If you lose you fail to start grapple.
Step 4: Maintain Grapple - each succeeding round you must first make an opposed grapple check before you can take an action while grappling, including moving the target, drawing a light weapon and others.

Last March on the WoTC site they spent four weeks going through all the particulars on grappling.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a

Hussar, if you're making an opposed attack role to determine a grapple then you're using a house rule and not the PHB.

I agree. My last D&D character was using Grapple a lot. That was a PAIN to use, the only special attack move I had to check again, and again... and yet again. It's slow, unnecessarily complicated... I understand the mechanic, but it sucks.

Just do some Grapple vs. Reflex checks. If grappler wins, then target grappled. Each next round, make opposed Strength checks. Whenever the defender wins, he breaks the hold. Simpler.

 

[bento]

It just never seemed all that difficult to me, but, then I run fairly combat heavy games, so these rules become pretty simple when you use them a lot.

Sorry to quote chapter and verse!

Things aren't automatic for my group, which is why the book gets pulled out alot. I got back into the game the past 18 months and most of the folks I play with (a university gaming group) are fairly new to P&P RPGs.

I find some of the more complex rules intimidate some new players away from trying to grapple and reinforcing the tactic of hitting everything with a weapon instead.

When the OP talks about the conflict between a system like D20 and FUDGE I have those internal debates all the time. I've read FUDGE and FATE, and see them as a way to liberate me from keeping track of all the rules and letting me focus on the story. But without a really cool toolkit like the PHB, I understand that players can get lost in trying to come up with and play a character they are really going to like.

I see True 20 (which I apologize for continuing to flog) as a middle path between the two. It rewards the tactical inclination of players while still maintaining an open feel about it.

 

[The Shaman]

If you play a wizard, you never need to understand how Cleave works. Even the DM doesn't need to understand it, unless a monster has it.

Whaaa-huhhh?

The game master doesn't need to know how the players' characters feats work? You really believe that?

Another aspect of elegance lies in "spending" complexity in the right place. Complexity in stuff you do away from the table - leveling up a PC, designing a new monster, is fine (within reasonable limits), since it has no impact on how quickly the game moves.

"Within reasonable limits" is a pretty freakin' huge caveat - the amount of work that the game master puts in "away from the table" has a direct, significant impact on what happens during play, and making that work more difficult isn't "fine."

 

[bento]

Just do some Grapple vs. Reflex checks. If grappler wins, then target grappled. Each next round, make opposed Strength checks. Whenever the defender wins, he breaks the hold. Simpler.

Honestly speaking, that's what we do most times.

If it's a monster trying a grapple, I allow the player to make an AoO first, then do a touch attack vs. reflex. If the player is grappling the moster, I skip the AoO and have the player make a touch attack vs. reflex save. Succeeding the touch attack, each round the player or monster must first succeed in the grapple check before they take a specific action (pin, hit, release, etc.) while grappling.

We have a monk who pumped up his grappling ability and can pin most of the baddies he's come across so far (everyone's 4th level now).

I really just bring it up to say that there are a few "ugly" core rules that, for the most part, get ignored and house-ruled around.

Yay - 50 posts!