The Elements, Energy types and Aristotle's cosmological system

[Telgian]

I think it's easier to pick and choose what works best from the philosophical systems that exist.

I'm not sure what the 'original' natural philosophy of D&D is.

IIRC some of the Indian philosophies also have the earth-air-water-fire arangement, while different philosophies have others. (Three element: water-air-food; Five element: earth-water-metal-wood-fire; and so forth.)

~~~~~~~~~~
I have my own pet project, currently on the back burner, that draws from different systems, and trying to develope some type of synthesis. (Six elements)

Ether is sometimes described as sound -- tie that in with the sonic descriptor -- toss in a bit of the 'music of the spheres'...
(Haven't quite decided how ether fits in with the other elements yet, though. So things could still change.

Anyhow, it's late. I'm pretty sure that I'm rambling/incoherent, so I'll spare you all further grief.

Telgian.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It would be interesting to somehow link those five elements to the platonic solid said to be their shape, for example, the dodecahedron for quintessence or the cube for earth.

The tetrahedron is fire; the cube is earth, the octahedron is air, the isocahedron is water, and the dodecahedron is the quintessence.

Plato makes this correspondence in the Timaeus.

 

[Alzrius]

the isocahedron is water

I'm basically just nitpicking here, but there is no such thing as an isocahedron. What you mean is the icosahedron, the d20.

 

[Destil]

This might be kind of off-topic, but I was thinking the other day that if dragons were re-done in 3E, it might be better up to match the 5 energy types to the 5 chromatic dragon breath weapons. It fits the cosmology a little better.

I guess I'd do it this way:

Red - Fire
Blue - Sonic
White - Cold
Black - Lightning
Green - Acid

I've been considering doing something similar, only all I felt the need to do was switch green to Sonic, giving it a breath weapon that has a +2 save DC when used underwater (since water conducts sound better).

I also quite dislike the idea that sonic damage is better or more unique or whatever, to which end I'v made air and water elementals, and creatures with a similar compisition (oozes and such) take 1/2 sonic damage, since there's nothing at all brittle within something like a water elemental that can snap from vibrations.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm basically just nitpicking here, but there is no such thing as an isocahedron. What you mean is the icosahedron, the d20.

And here I thought I was so clever, citing the Timaeus. The really embarassing thing is, I have a B.Sc. in Mathematics, and really should know my terminology better. Oh well, I'll just pretend it was a typo.

Back to the elements:

Let's consider the three element model (as outlined in the first post). Let them be the three axes of a cube. Each element has two energies- let them be the opposite faces of the cube.

So an "energy cube" might have elemental fire as the vertical axis. The energy "fire" will be the top face of the cube, and lightning will be the bottom face. The horizontal dimension might be water: cold on the right, acid on the left. The depth dimension would be air: force in front, and sonic on the back of the cube.

Where all the forces meet (in the centre) is the positive energy pole- negative energy surrounds the cube.

The cube symbolizes earth, which is not an element, but the mixture of the three elements and six forces which comprise everyday life.

A cube has 12 edges- they could correspond to the 12 signs of the zodiac. The eight corners of the cube correspond to the 7 planets, and the "eight planet" is free will. (The stars influence- they do not determine.) So we have astrological influences in there too.

 

[fusangite]

Medieval Europe, upon which the D&D universe is supposed to be weakly based, believed in Aristotelian science. This is the system of natural philosophy (the term for science from when the word 'science' meant knowledge) that was based on Aristotle's works and elaborated by the alchemical theories from the Arab world by Jabir which were also based on Aristotelian physics and the astronomy of Ptolemy.

In the Aristotelian worldview, there are four elements, each based on a combination of two of four qualities:
Fire: heat + dry
Earth: dry + cold
Water: cold + wet
Air: wet + hot

There is also a fifth element (quintessence), ether. Nothing in the terrestrial world is made out of ether; ether is the substance from which the celestial spheres are made. In some theories of alchemy, it was believed that the philosopher's stone was made of ether.

Overlaid onto this was the later development of the sulphur-mercury theory which stated that all metals were made from these two primary components. Salt was added to this system in the 17th century as the third constituent of metals.

As you can see, the Aristotelian natural philosophy system bears some resemblance to the D&D system but not a precise one. Therefore, the intricate scientific and philosophical worldview which rested upon these ideas cannot quite fit into D&D.

In particular, I find it noteworthy that the only cultures that have accepted Aristotelian physics have been monotheistic ones -- medieval Islam and Christianity. I think the idea of how deities might interact with the physical world in D&D might also further destabilize the system.

Because I think the Aristotelian system is a very beautiful one, I have kind of the same reaction to D&D and elements as I do to D&D and LOTR -- I'd rather have D&D avoid trying to represent something it will ultimately just end up butchering. I'm of two minds therefore about the elements; on one hand, I'd like to fix elements & D&D so that we can actually run the game with Aristotelian physics; on the other, I'd like to replace the D&D element system with one that is unique, rationally done and compatible with the letter and spirit of the rules.

Also, I have to ask what do people think about falling damage? The way I read it, in the D&D universe, you don't accelerate through space as you fall. What are the implications of this and what conclusions can we draw about D&D physics?

 

[dcollins]

Also, I have to ask what do people think about falling damage? The way I read it, in the D&D universe, you don't accelerate through space as you fall. What are the implications of this and what conclusions can we draw about D&D physics?

Interpreted as kinetic damage, the system makes reasonable real-world sense. The kinetic energy from a fall increases linearly with height, and that's what should cause the damage -- not the speed itself.

The rules mention in a number of places that falls get faster with time, e.g.: the DMG damaged-flyer-falling-speed, the falling parameters given in the Dungeon adventure "Storm Lord's Keep", etc.

In my campaign, I do increase falling damage geometrically; not because it's strictly a more damaging fall, but as a counter to characters' increasing Hit Dice which represent dodging/fortune ability in combat, and are not so appropriate for raw environmental punishment.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I've been considering doing something similar, only all I felt the need to do was switch green to Sonic, giving it a breath weapon that has a +2 save DC when used underwater (since water conducts sound better).

I also quite dislike the idea that sonic damage is better or more unique or whatever, to which end I'v made air and water elementals, and creatures with a similar compisition (oozes and such) take 1/2 sonic damage, since there's nothing at all brittle within something like a water elemental that can snap from vibrations.

I wonder if this rule (1/2 damage from sonic attacks) could be generalized to all creatures that are immune to critical hits? That would be a nice balancing feature to a form of energy that many people think sonic is just a little too good.

 

[widderslainte]

Vaguely On-Topic...

The scenes from the Lord of the Rings inspired me to associate ether with invisibility. The idea has been bouncing around in my head along with the astral sight and projection rules in Shadowrun. Not sure how I'll use it rule-wise yet.

 

[The Sigil]

FWIW, I've thought about the "classic" energy types as well.

I chose to start by relating things to the "modern" elemental states of matter...

Earth = Solid
Water = Liquid
Air = Gas
Fire = Plasma (a little tenuous, but can be made)

My next step is to add "electrons" in the form of Electricity

Electricity = electrons/electric charge = "energy" (not in the sense of Positive/Negative energy, but just "energy")

I might then derive the following:

Acid = Liquid plus "Negative Electricity" ("Lewis acids" try to "rip electrons away, implying that they have a surplus of protons, hence they are in a real sense the "opposite" of electricity)

Now, I need to figure out how to derive explanations for:

Cold
Force
Sonic

I could make a (tenuous) argument that

Sonic = Gas plus Energy (Sound Waves)

Now, I go "metaphysical" - "Earth/Solid" is the form matter takes when it is in the state of least energy, so to further "drain" it of energy makes it palpable cold...

Cold = Solid plus Negative Energy

Similarly, I resort to metaphysical argument that "Fire/Plasma", the highest energy state, can somehow be channelled into an "infinite potential wall" through which nothing can pass (i.e., you must have more energy than the plasma to pass through, and I can increase the plasma's energy to infinity) by adding energy...

Force = Plasma plus Energy

This has some interesting implications... to review

Earth = Solid
Water = Liquid
Air = Gas
Fire = Plasma

Electricity = Energy

We have a set of "preferred associations" to get the other elemental damage types:

Cold = Solid + Negative Energy ("un-Electricity, if you will)
Acid = Liquid + Negative Energy
Sonic = Gas + Energy
Force = Plasma + Energy

This of course leaves four "other" combinations...

Solid + Energy = Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing
Liquid + Energy = Bases (which wind up being similar in their destructive effects to acids)
Gas + Negative Energy = Silence
Plasma + Negative Energy = Teleport/Plane Shift (after all, the opposite of an "impassable wall" would be the "portal to anywhere")

More mixing could yield

Solid + Liquid = Amorphous stuff like Mud/Shapechange
Liquid + Gas = Vapor/Mist
Gas + Plasma = ???

Not quite sure where I'm going with all of this, but thought it was interesting enough to throw out there. Still working out how to add Positive/Negative Energy (as in Healing and Necromantic energies). Regardless, I think I have hit quite a few of the "typical" descriptors in this mental exercise.

Other things I have thought about - trying to add dimensionality (x, y, z, t, meta - meta represents a "higher awareness" such as that granted by divination spells) to the mix.

But when I add that many axes I find I'm up to 8 axes:
x
y
z
t
meta
elemental state
energy (lightning)
positive/negative (healing/undead) energy

...and that gets really hard for me to visualize.

--The Sigil