The Elite

[Bront]

Dwarf ~= Hobgoblin because the hobbos have two bonuses, the dwarves have one bonus and a penalty that doesn't matter plus better specials. But nonetheless, hobgoblins are LA +1. Also, you can easily imagine the comparison of 42 PB Dwarf vs 30 PB hobgoblin

How about a 42 PB Human or Dwarf vs a 30 point Aasimar or Half-Giant?

or a 66 PB Human or Dwarf compared vs a 30 point Drow or for that matter vs 42 point Aasimar or Half-Giant?

 

[Rystil Arden]

How about a 42 PB Human or Dwarf vs a 30 point Aasimar or Half-Giant?

or a 66 PB Human or Dwarf compared vs a 30 point Drow or for that matter vs 42 point Aasimar or Half-Giant?

Aasimar and Tiefling both don't stand up to the Point Buy increase, particularly since their only salient feature beyond the basic stat increases and weak little powers, the ability to exploit Polymorph due to Outsider type, has been compromised due to Polymorph errata. Half Giant is built for a fighter-type and is actually a fairly good match for an LA of 1 in that regard, without becoming incredibly weak, so I wouldn't be surprised if Half-Giant was about even with the stat-raises.

 

[doghead]

I like the idea.

Personally, I would make it something that can only be done at creation. But thats mostly because sudden stat increases mid-career would be jarring.

thotd

 

[Patlin]

I think in a world like LEW, ECL is less a disadvanatge than in normal game, as you can easily have people of different level in a same group, it isn,t like to have a gaming group with everyone at the same level.

Depends on whether the DM takes the ECL seriously and balances combats based on it. Let's compare a party of 4 3rd level 30 point buy character to a party of 4 1st level 60 point buy characters. They are the same ECL under this suggestion, and should face equal challenges.

I think the high point buy guys are likely to get their clocks cleaned. Of course, the 4 1st level 30 point buy Githzerai are in about the same situation. Level adjustments are most often the kiss of death.

In a more realistic scenario, where only one of the 4 characters has a level adjustment, the consequences will be less dramatic, but the character still won't likely be pulling their own weight.

 

[Patlin]

What would look like a monk make with the three systems:

PB:  30  42  60

Str: 14  16  18
Dex: 14  16  16
Con: 14  14  16
Int: 10  12  14
Wis: 16  16  18
Cha:  8  10  10

Githzerai Monk (+2 LA, 30 pt buy above with racial mods)
Str 14
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 8

For the sake of the argument, let's assume that the remaining racial abilities match those of a LA+0 monk, though I think naturally psionic and inertial armor are much too good for that to be realistic.

 

[Bront]

Depends on whether the DM takes the ECL seriously and balances combats based on it. Let's compare a party of 4 3rd level 30 point buy character to a party of 4 1st level 60 point buy characters. They are the same ECL under this suggestion, and should face equal challenges.

I think the high point buy guys are likely to get their clocks cleaned. Of course, the 4 1st level 30 point buy Githzerai are in about the same situation. Level adjustments are most often the kiss of death.

In a more realistic scenario, where only one of the 4 characters has a level adjustment, the consequences will be less dramatic, but the character still won't likely be pulling their own weight.

You're better off using 5th vs 3rd level characters, just because 1st level is dangerous in general.

And, in that case... well, The 3rd levelers aren't off as bad, since the Fighter with better stats likely has a con good enough to make up for some of the HP deficiency, the Strength to make up for the attack bonus, and does more damage per hit. The Wizard or cleric has higher DCs, though he's shorted an entire spell level (We know that casters are more hosed than non-casters). Skillmonkey classes get more skills per level with higher ints, and better bonuses due to better stats, but are just a little behind in HP and class abilities.

So, it's not too bad.

Here's the problem with going up after creation.... Skill points. You loose out on skill points, which means it's more detrimental than normal. Unless you would get to use those skill points at that "level" advancement.

The problem that I see is that if we don't let people retroactively do this, it won't get used much. I haven't seen anyone retire a character (Because you still loose a level, and by that time you grow attached to them), and no one's died yet permanently (THough we've had 2 close calls). Generaly, I realy have not found much use in LA creatures, because they just put you too far behind most of the time what you could get from a class.

 

[Velmont]

Githzerai Monk (+2 LA, 30 pt buy above with racial mods)
Str 14
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 8

For the sake of the argument, let's assume that the remaining racial abilities match those of a LA+0 monk, though I think naturally psionic and inertial armor are much too good for that to be realistic.

Pretty much close of a +1LA elite human monk, but as you said, his racial abilities may compensate the other +1LA if we compare it to a +1LA elite human monk

 

[Patlin]

The fundamental deficit of increased pointbuy is it has little effect on the character's best stat. If you want an 18 in your best stat, you can have one with the normal point buy. 30, 60 or 96 point buy, that one doesn't go up. The +0 LA Cleric can have the same DC's as the +2 LA Cleric. At least with the Githzerai, you get the novelty of having a possible starting Dex of 24.

 

[orsal]

I'm leaning toward supporting this as it stands, although I am a bit ambivalent. I would definitely oppose any proposal that would allow existing characters to be retooled with sudden massive ability increases.

The reason I am ambivalent: I like having a little more variety in overall character power. It's one of many things I really don't like about point-buy. But I don't want to give players more incentive than they already have to play "credit-earning" characters, characters they intend to discard in order to gain access to new options. I prefer players to have a little more sense of investment in their characters.

I do like Manzanita's suggestion for allowing different PB totals for different characters of the same player. So long as everyone is limited to one extra-powerful character, it's fair, and it makes it possible to create a monk or paladin with attributes worthy of the class. It's not too late to enact such a rule, even if those with three existing characters can only benefit from it by retiring a character.

 

[Patlin]

I do like Manzanita's suggestion for allowing different PB totals for different characters of the same player. So long as everyone is limited to one extra-powerful character, it's fair, and it makes it possible to create a monk or paladin with attributes worthy of the class. It's not too late to enact such a rule, even if those with three existing characters can only benefit from it by retiring a character.

I think I'd prefer that as a method of variable point buy as well. Possibly one 36 point buy character? I'm not 100% sure I like the idea, but I think it might work better than level adjustments. I actually like the level playing field point buy provides.

However, I wouldn't rule out the possibilty of applying it to existing characters retroactively... if we decide we want to do it.