The emancipation of feats and death of PrC's?(long)

[beepeearr]

I do something similiar to the extra feat every other level, but mine are player optional. Basically every players has ten slots at first level he can fill with one of three types of flaws, two of these flaws (one is more like anti-feats, and the other is heavilly modified from Swashbuckiling adventures) give a bonus feat every other level until a bonus feat has been gained for every flaw of those two types. This way the players can get extra feats, but only by handicapping themselves in the begining. Basically they make the encounters more difficult by taking these flaws, but instead of gaining more XP, they gain bonus feats.

The other type of flaw is used more to define your character and modify it (similiar to traits found in Unearthed Arcana). This is also how I handle variant classes, variant class abilities, and Racial Substitution levels though, by making variant class abilities traits that can be used to swap out individual class abilities.

 

[Andor]

There are some things that prestige classes do that simply cannot be done with feats.

Transformative classes like the Dragon Disciple, or Ooze Master.

'Branching Path' classes where a character gives up progression in one aspect of the original class in order to advance faster in another aspect like the Master of Many Forms or the Beast Master.

Alternate Path classes where the character chooses to develop in a significantly different direction than normal path of that class like the Bear Warrior or the Tattoed Monk.

That having been said there are plenty of prestige classes out there that I do feel would have been better done as feat chains.

Feats are overly precious I think, I like Estlors idea of importing the D20 Modern structure and alternating a feat and a class ability at every level.

Interestingly d20 modern uses tool-kit base classes and then let's you advance into a career style advanced or prestige class.

Part of the problem with DnD is that some classes are d20 modern-like tool kits like the fighter and rogue, where other most defintely are career defining like the Paladin and Monk. This leads to a lot of confusion and debate about the role of classes.

 

[Nellisir]

In Green Ronin's Advanced GM's Manual, one variant provided is a feat OR ability increase at every level.

I actually think I like your variant better. Seems less likely to get out of hand.

Thanks. I thought GR's variant a little too uncontrolled.

 

[Steverooo]

If I Ruled The World...

You're certainly not alone, (Jolly?) Gold Roger! I, too, have always hated the so-called "Prestige" Classes, and don't allow any of them in my games, when I GM, except for the ones in the DMG (and I don't believe that anyone has ever taken any of them). I have always felt that the PC Classes should be prestigious, and at least as good as the PrCs... Sadly, they are NOT.

If I rewrote D&D, I would keep PrCs, but change them. The requirements would be stat-based, Feats (and hence the stats), and skill levels. Feats would not be stupid stuff like "Skill Focus: Craft (Alchemy)", which can just be a requirement of so many ranks, but something reasonably required by the PrC. Joining would also ALWAYS require tests and/or quests, and doing whatever was required to become a member... Becoming a Knight of the Horn, for instance, would require a certain level of fighting ability (BAB), armor, shield, and weapons use, and that the PC have aided Verbobonc/Furyondy in some significant way, and be sponsored by someone already a member who was willing to vouch for the PC. Becoming an Immortal Alchemist would require some ranks in Alchemy, and that the PC locate an existing member, and somehow obtain information to aid them in becoming immortal (which is entirely campaign-based, and GM-controlled).

As for Feats, this I would change, altogether. I would rule out the first levels of classes (as Fighters get three armor proficiencies, two shield proficiencies, Simple Weapons Proficiencies, and one Martial Weapons Proficiency for EVERY Martial Weapon in the PHB I!), and then add up all the special abilities that any PC class gets... IIRC, I don't think that any class gets more than five (I could be wrong). Anyway, whatever that amount is, that would become the upper limit (note here that this refers to NEW abilities, only, not to +1D6 Sneak Attack, or a new Favored Enemy, or otherwise improving an already-existing capability -- some definition needs to be done, here... is Improved Uncanny Dodge or the different types of Bardic Music a "New" ability? I say "Yes!"). Anyway, whatever that number is, that would set the upper limit of character abilities. Let's assume that that number is FOUR, for the sake of arguement... I would still allow the one Feat/3 levels, as normal.

I would then say that FOUR abilities per level is all that ANY PC could get, unless earned through skill advancement (I'll get to that, later). That includes character class abilities, Fighter Bonus Feats, Rogue Extraordinary Abilities, and Prestige Class abilities...

Now with an upper limit set, most first level PCs won't get much, besides their first level feat, and a Feat for being Human. Fighters will get one Bonus Feat. Rogues will get two (Sneak Attack & Trapfinding). Druids will get an Animal Companion, Nature Sense, and Wild Empathy. Clerics get Turn/Rebuke Undead. Bards get four (Bardic Knowledge & three types of Bardic Music). Barbarians only get two (Fast Movement & Rage -- Illiteracy is an Anti-Feat). Monks are VERY deceptive, and get FIVE+ Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Extra Damage (two jumps, from 1D3 for Medium to 1D6), Flurry of Blows/Misses, a Bonus Feat, and the Extraordinary AC Bonus which allows them to add their WIS Bonus (and more, at higher levels) to their unarmed AC (not to mention a host of Exotic Weapon Proficiencies)! Paladins get only two (Detect & Smite Evil; Aura of Good is not an ability, nor is the aura that Clerics get). Rangers get three (Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy). Sorcerers & Wizards get Summom Familiar (and Scribe Scroll, for the Wizzers). Note here that Magic Use is never counted as a new ability, as it is already balanced by the class' other (dis-)abilities.

So, as PCs advance, allow them to pick up Feats, THROUGH TRAINING (allowing the GM to control availability & drain off excess treasure) to equal the number set as the limit (FOUR, in this illustration). The Monk? (S)He already has FIVE+. At level two, (s)he will get another Bonus Feat and Evasion, pay back the one extra, and still be eligible for to train for one more...

Again, Armor/Shield/Weapon Proficiencies granted by the Class are ignored, here, or Fighters would be forever behind! For Multi-classers, say, a Rogue becoming a Ranger, for every Non-Martial, Non-Exotic Weapon or Armor Proficiency (or other Feat/Special Ability) that a previous Class already granted (Simple Weapons & Light Armor Proficiencies, in this case), the Multiclassed PC can spend that time training for some other Feat, instead.

For Prestige Classes, the new Class Abilities will be counted against the total allowed. This may include special abilities which are NOT Feats (such as Nature Sense or Wild Empathy, Gate-Crashing, Trapfinding, etc.), as well.

For characters without a PrC or Multiclass, however, the only abilities that can be gained are Feats, and they must meet the requirements normally. Thus, there are stat-based limits, as well (and if they use spells or stat-boosting items to qualify, they LOSE THE FEAT when not using them, and any feets in that tree based upon the lost stat, as well)!

So, what happens when a character advances in level, and gains new Class abilities? Well, they get them, as usual, and they count against the level limit. Prestige Classes can have requirements to join, and grant abilities, but no BAB, HPs, save bonuses, etc. As they advance levels in their base Character Class, they can also be gaining levels in the Prestige Class, as long as they don't go over FOUR (the arbitrary limit). If they do? Let them pick the ones they get this level, and gain the rest the next, when they have an "open slot".

Also note, here, that things like Rangers' Favored Enemies, Rogues' Sneak Attacks, maybe even Bards' Bardic Music, get treated as "Feat Trees", not new abilities. Some work would have to be done balancing these out, against the base of a Feat. (If a Rogue's increased Sneak Attack damage is treated as a Feat every few levels, it's best to just do that, instead).

I also favor treating most (if not all) character abilities as Feats. Make Trapfinding a Feat. Tracking already is. Make Nature Sense and Wild Empathy Feats. Make Favored Enemies a Feat, and add it to the Fighters' list. Make the Monks' WIS-Bonus-to-Unarmored-AC a Feat, as well as increased unarmed strike damage and movement speed Feats. Restrict them by stats, BAB, and/or level, so that other classes can't get them before the base classes that have them, and either allow Feat Trees, or increase the abilities with level, as they work now.

Thus, you can have a Fighter with the Unarmored AC and Unarmed Strike Damage of a Monk, when unarmored, who also has Improved Grappling, and Favored Enemy, for instance. He could multiclass as a Monk to get that, but doesn't have to. He could also leave out any abilities that he DOESN'T want, such as mystical ones.

Rangers' weapon styles could become Feat Trees, instead of Feats. Take TWF, at second level, get TW Defense at third, Improved TWF at sixth, Greater TWF at ninth (or so), and TWF Mastery at 11th (removes the -2/-2 penalties). This could even be extended further, adding the TWF Rend/Pounce options from PHB II. If these abilities are NOT treated as Feat Trees (basically what is being done, now), then it's best to remove the Light/No Armor restrictions, and just treat them as normal Feats. For Archery, gain Point-Blank Shot at second, Rapid Shot at third, throw in Manyshot and/or Precise Shot, then Improved Precise Shot at higher levels, and end with the choice of other archery Feats with PBS as the Prerequisite.

Now as for the Fighter, whatever restrictions the GM places on learning other Feats, the Fighter MUST ALWAYS be able to learn his Fighter Bonus Feats, so long as he has access to normal training (if the GM uses that rule), and the weapon(s) he is training with. This is a Fighter Class feature, and is required to keep him up to snuff! So, for instance, if the PCs are all shipwrecked on a desert island, and the GM usually requires training with a character who already knows the Feat in order to gain a new Feat, the Fighter can still learn any Feats on the Fighter's Bonus Feats list, as long as (for instance) he has access to a Bastard Sword when trying to acquire Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Quick Draw, for instance, he could learn even without a weapon (using a stick or rock)!

As for acquiring Feats, normally, learning a weapon requires access to the weapon, a trainer, time and a place to train, and whatever fees all of that requires. Same for weapons & shields. Metamagic requires magical ability (and Eschew Materials needs to be moved from General to Metamagic)! Many Feats (such as Run) require nothing, as do, say, Skill Focus: Spot, Skill Focus: Listen, Alertness, Stealthy, Acrobatic, etc. (May still require a teacher, of course!)

Some Feats, such as Wild Empathy, may be restricted. Metamagic Feats certainly should be, as should Item Creation Feats. Learning them without spell ability is just plain dumb, anyway!

Now to the innovative part. Acquiring skill earns you Feats, which could reduce the number of Feats you are eligible to train for, as usual... or not. If you are an Arcane Caster, are literate (and all are, as only Barbarians are illiterate, and joining any other class fixes that), then Arcane Spellcaster Level X+ automatically earns you the Scribe Scroll Feat. Mages already get it... but Sorcerers and Bards don't (but would, now)! Likewise, levels of Arcane (or Divine) spellcasting could be set for other Feats, and skill level requirements added. As another example, in OD&D (1e), ANY Magic User of a certain level (3rd?) could make scrolls, and any MU of (IIRC) 9th level could make a potion with the aid of an Alchemist, and ANY MU could, by 11th. In 4.0, the requirements could be Craft (Alchemy) 12+ Ranks & Caster level 9+, OR Caster level 11+ gives you the Brew Potion Feats, for free (as one of your FOUR/level arbitrary limit). Want to do it sooner? Get the Feat, and when you get the ranks, get a different one, instead.

This idea is especially important if you have Bastion Press' Alchemy & Herbalism book, or such-like. Rework the Feats to simply allow the ranks to give PCs the Feat, instead. This idea already exists within the RAW, as well... Any PC with 5+ ranks of Survival can automatically determine which way is north. No DC:5 roll, it's automatic! IIRC, I believe that fighting with a warhorse, in battle, is about DC:5-6, as well. With a few ranks in Ride, this is automatic. This idea just expands upon that basis.

So, if you spend your time learning to climb, then you will eventually gain some Climb Feats (if there are any). The ability to climb smooth walls (ordinarily impossible) using only a corner is an example (currently covered by a high DC).

Anyway, I'm sure some people will hate this idea. Others will simply think that four or five/level is too many (and I could live with fewer). Some may question whether each use of Bardic Music is a Feat or Feat Tree, or rank/level-dependent. It would take some good game-design to answer this question. I don't claim to know.

I DO know that all "empty levels" need to be removed from character classes. I would like to see a list of "Druid/Ranger-Only" Feats, "Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard-Only" Feats, "Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Ranger-Only" Feats, "Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger-Only" Feats, etc., as well as the General, Metamagic, Item Creation, and so-on. PCs could then use these to fill in the empty levels with abilities they want. Prestige Classes could add Supernatural, Extraordinary, and/or Feat abilities, and have requirements to join, WITHOUT taking a level away from your PC class.

Same effects, you just get there a different way...

Need the party to sneak into the citadel dressed as enemy guardsmen, but have a Ranger (Light Armor Proficiency, only), a Wizard (None!), and a Monk (Ditto!) in the group, while the guardsmen all wear Fullplate? Have the Fighter train them all in the three Armor Proficiencies (and the Ranger can learn something else, like Point-Blank Shot, while the others learn Light Armor Proficiency), and then everyone will be able to sneak in, without tripping over their Armor Check Penalties - they can already do this, in 3.5e, by spending a level to become Fighters, but why make them, when all they need is the Proficiency?)! At higher levels, Prestige classes (with their Extraordinary & Supernatural abilities) will still be preferred, but the guys who don't qualify for any (because they didn't select it at level one!) can still either pick up the needed Feats to join, or just spend their time & money learning to do something more normal (General Feats), instead. The Ranger with high Search can take Trapfinding, the Druid can take Favored Enemy (Undead), and later add (Aberrations), the Fighter can nearly match the Monk in unarmed & unarmored combat, if he wishes, and the Wizards & Sorcerers can pick up Uncanny Dodge (and later improve it), and add their WIS-Bonus-to-Unarmored-AC, like Monks do (and up that, at higher levels).

I don't know, sounds like a good idea, to me, if it's properly balanced. God knows that a whole heap of "Prestige" Classes weren't. I want the PC Classes to be pretigious! If you can gain three Armor Proficiencies, two Shield Proficiencies, Simple Weapons Proficiencies, and a whole HOST of Martial Weapons Proficiencies, in a single level, by multiclassing as a Fighter/Whatever, I don't see the problem with just allowing the restriction to be trained away with time & money (No one enforces the 20% XP Penalty, anyway, in my experience).

(Well, that's what I'd do, if I ruled the world. I'm sure the poison pens and flaming darts are already out, and angry missives will soon be coming my way... I'd remove all the +4 bonuses, and give the PCs all of the "Improved..." Feats for Bull RushDisarm/Grapple/Sunder/Trip/Unarmed Strike, too, so that they'd get used more often, too! I'd also give PCs Background Racial Skills, and a certain amount of skills/level, in addition to their skill points, too - I hate unknowledgable, incompetent PCs as a GM, as well as a player!)

 

[Gold Roger]

There are some things that prestige classes do that simply cannot be done with feats.

Transformative classes like the Dragon Disciple, or Ooze Master.

Yea, transformatives are of the kind I'm most accepting of. Though I don't like when they are class specific. Instead of a caster only elemental savant give my element specific elemental lords that are more bound to mystical in-game developements that every char of a certain level can take.

'Branching Path' classes where a character gives up progression in one aspect of the original class in order to advance faster in another aspect like the Master of Many Forms or the Beast Master.

Substitution level and alternate class features should do this. It allows the specialisation from earlier on. And since such PrC can only be taken by or are only really advantegous to the "appropiate" class, there's no loss in the PrC-alternate class feature transition.

Alternate Path classes where the character chooses to develop in a significantly different direction than normal path of that class like the Bear Warrior or the Tattoed Monk.

Again, alternate features/substitution level coupled with featsdo as good to better a job at this.

 

[Felon]

I really feel with the PHB2 is moving away from prestige classes.

There's no mention of them whatsover, the new base classes are non-synergetic with them.

The PHB II doesn't cover prestige classes because they are not the province of a player's handbook. They are a DM-introduced option, which is why they originally appeared in the DMG. The PHBII classes synergize with some PrC's well, and others not so well.

The assertion that PrC's can be converted into feat chains ignores a number of realities. For one thing, a class offers more than class features. It is a combination of BAB, hit dice, skill points, class skills, saving throw bonuses, and class features.

As for comparing class features to feats, I woudl point out that a feat has to achieve a certain median of effectiveness. It can't be so lousy that other choices clearly outshine it, yet can't be so good that players feel they're short-changing themselves by not taking it. By structuring class features into an array of levels, a PrC can offer a feature that might be too minor to make a good feat (for instance, the ability to avoid accidentally poisoning oneself when applying poison to a weapon, the ability to spread a bag of caltrops as a standard action instead of a full-round action, or the ability to use a spiked chain to inflict bludgeoning as well as piercing damage), or it can go to the other extreme (such as granting a character spellcasting advancement in both a divine and an arcane class).

It's ironic to suggest that PrC's be eliminated because of their abuse potential, when their structure actually allows for a more balanced, coherent advancement in abilities than an unstructured, optimizable, a la carte feat allotment does.

 

[Gold Roger]

The PHB II doesn't cover prestige classes because they are not the province of a player's handbook. They are a DM-introduced option, which is why they originally appeared in the DMG. The PHBII classes synergize with some PrC's well, and others not so well.

Yet PrC's have been the domain of player targeted products since the dawning times of 3.0. Other products that where mostly DM targeted had PrC's added explicitly as players recources. The truth is that the original 3.0 DMG was more or less the only time PrC's where ever the DMs domain.

Add to that the fact that affiliations, something that should be DM supervised and fills in many ways the spot of PrC's, can be found in the PHB2.

The assertion that PrC's can be converted into feat chains ignores a number of realities. For one thing, a class offers more than class features. It is a combination of BAB, hit dice, skill points, class skills, saving throw bonuses, and class features.

So, should PC's be able to "buy" themselfes different base stats than their actual classes provide?

Base classes and multiclassing provide a good choice on these. If you want to differ further from your classes base paradigms there are, you guessed it, feats for that (iron will and co, improved toughness and co, weapon focus & co, open minded). There should be feats that give you new class skills as well.

As for comparing class features to feats, I woudl point out that a feat has to achieve a certain median of effectiveness. It can't be so lousy that other choices clearly outshine it, yet can't be so good that players feel they're short-changing themselves by not taking it. By structuring class features into an array of levels, a PrC can offer a feature that might be too minor to make a good feat (for instance, the ability to avoid accidentally poisoning oneself when poisoning a weapon, the ability to spread a bag of caltrops as a standard action instead of a full-round action, or the ability to use a spiked chain to inflict bludgeoning as well as piercing damage), or it can go to the other extreme (such as granting a character spellcasting advancement in both a divine and an arcane class).

You say that as if feats had to be measured by a static sample. Yet wirlwind attack is more powerfull than combat expertise. But both are balanced feats. And what about weapon supremacy, that beats out just about every other feat in power level and jet, is balanced as well. (This is by the way a point I have already stated)

Just like advanced levels, advanced prequisites can balance out feats.

Where this is not possible alternate class features can jump in, while abilities to weak to support a feat can be bundled with simmilar abilities, as the PHB2 does in many cases.

It's ironic that it's being suggested that PrC be eliminated because of their abuse potential, when their structure actually allows for a more balanced, coherent advancement in abilities than an unstructured, a la carte one-feat-per-level allotment would.

It's funny that abuse potential was the most minor point of my argumentation. My far more major concerns are the implications PrC's have on setting and player choices.

 

[Felon]

Yet PrC's have been the domain of player targeted products since the dawning times of 3.0. Other products that where mostly DM targeted had PrC's added explicitly as players recources. The truth is that the original 3.0 DMG was more or less the only time PrC's where ever the DMs domain.

WotC intentionally tries to inject most of their books with player-friendly content to some degree since DM's comprise a much smaller audience. The only books that are expressly DM-targeted are adventures.

Setting sourcebooks for FR and Eberron would be the next candidates for the DM-targeted label, and they have certainly been prime real estate for new PrC's. Outside of that, books like the environment series, the magic series (Weapons of Legacy, Magic of Incarnum), and the "mature audience" books (BoVD and BoED) are heavily aimed at DM's because they have to implement most of that stuff, and they all offer PrC's.

It's funny that abuse potential was the most minor point of my argumentation.

Well, I wasn't really targeting your post exclusively.

The bottom line is, prestige classes are a DM tool. They provide DM's with a way to offer paths to players that don't require them to be nearly as meticulous as they would be to scrutinize specific little feat chains and analyze their prerequisites before greenlighting this one and banning that one. And all but the most bland PrC's have more personality and RP potential than a feat chain.

But really, it's a matter of personal preference. Just as you can suggest that all PrC's can be boiled down to feat chains by adding on prerequisites, others would say that rather than devising endless arrays of byzantine feat chains you might as well construct PrC's instead.

 

[Pbartender]

Out of curiosity, Gold, have you tried taking a look through the Iron Heroes rules? they feature...

1) No PrCs that I've seen yet... (There's really no need for them with the options available.)
2) Increased frequency of feats gained... (Two at 1st level, one at every even level thereafter plus bonus fetas from classes, instead of one every third level.)
3) Expanded feat and feat-chain options in the form of "feat masteries"... (Many class abilities and magic item effects have been incorporated into these feat masteries to increase character customization, and reduce reliance on magical items for a character's power.)

You should take a peek at it... The system goes a long way to making many of changes you suggest.

 

[Felon]

You should take a peek at it... The system goes a long way to making many of changes you suggest.

Not a bad suggestion at all.