The End of Angel

[WizarDru]

Please tell me you have those scripts saved somewhere? I've been wanting to read those, but they're not up on any sites I can find.

Regrettably, I don't. They were posted to a now defunct e-book site by JMS, and I never thought to save them at the time...and then the site took them down, and then went down itself. There were three scripts, the last two episodes of the season from JMS, and one that I think was planned for the second season, featuring Bester. These would have confirmed and in certain cases predated material that would appear in the two trilogies, one by Gregory Keyes and the other by Jeane Cavelos (I think) dealing with the mages and the Telepath war.

Great stuff, really.

 

[Planesdragon]

"just another TV Show?"

Buffy was a followup to a movie (a tug to the mainstream) following the adventures of a fashion consious spunky teen (mainstream) with an ensemble cast of supporting teens (mainstream) with supernatural battles (the hook). In other words, just another TV show.

Think about that for a minute.

• Most crossovers between Cinema and television are the screen expanding, not contracting. Of the hundred or so popular movie/series combinations, only a few started out as movies. And the most memoriable of them? M*A*S*H, which was TV doing a Shakespherean "were not talking about THIS war" message about Vietnam.
• A "fashion concious teen" who burnt down her school and is a supernatural freak. That's right up there with Superman and the last season of "Ellen" for "normal."
• A ensemble cast that openly slept around, shifted roles and/or members every season, and included a Gay Jewish Witch. (Hey, that could be a series in itself--three, actually.)
• And as for the hook--actually, it was just a gimmick. The real hook was the writing. Not the acting, not the set design--the writing. (A few actors were good, but SMG isn't by any means a great actor).

So, if it was "just" another TV show, then you must have an awfully high bar. Or you just don't like TV.

And, lets face it, everything eventually goes off the air. But when you're looking for the reason that your show went off the air, I guess "they just couldn't handle its non mainstream themes which only appeal to people as cool and enlightened as me" makes us all feel better about losing a show we liked than "it hit a slump and wasn't what the execs needed."

Y'know, either of those are valid interpreations of what Whedon said.

"I did this creative thing, like we're supposed to--and I got cancelled for it!"

*sigh* I think when I die, I'm going to bequeath every copyright I have and the remainder of my estate to a trust to encourage popular art. It's friggin' annoying having artists who have more reach than any painter ever could tied to the whim of some suit who doesn't pay his taxes.

 

[John Crichton]

And as for the hook--actually, it was just a gimmick. The real hook was the writing. Not the acting, not the set design--the writing. (A few actors were good, but SMG isn't by any means a great actor).

I would say she was, on that show. She even won a Daytime Emmy for her work in soaps. I think she really carried the show and made the viewer really feel the scenes she was in. Sure, we all couldn't relate to her (most of us related more to Xander for obvious reasons) but she was the glue that kept all the crazy together. She made us believe a skinny California girl could pull off superhuman feats. She had the attitude, the charisma and the chops to pull off the absurd.

Now, if she could start picking some better movie rolls to play...

 

[LightPhoenix]

Not likely. Lyta's involvement was required for too many other plot elements regarding the Telepath War, Bester, Garibaldi, etc. Those things don't play out properly without an anomalously powerful telepath being involved, and that means Lyta, since Talia was removed from the picture.

Actually, according to statements JMS had made, Ivanova was supposed to hook up with Byron, with Lyta in the background. Also, keep in mind that there are almost no plot elements about the Teep War revealed... the only one I know for sure (based on what JMS has said) was that Lennier dies during it. Even that's suspect, since he said Lyta was supposed to die too, but she would have had a guest appearance on Crusade had the actress not had scheduling conflicts.

So really, having Ivanova with Byron might not have changed much at all in regards to the storyline. Or at least, the storyline would have adapted to fit the events of the fifth season.

 

[Staffan]

Even that's suspect, since he said Lyta was supposed to die too, but she would have had a guest appearance on Crusade had the actress not had scheduling conflicts.

IIRC, that appearance would have been in a flashback in Path of Sorrows. The teep XO (I'm drawing a blank on his name at the moment) has a flashback to helping someone in the telepathic resistance group escape confinement in a PsiCorps facility, which is then quickly followed by the place being blown up (or something like that - it's been a while since I watched it). That would originally have been Lyta.

I also think Lennier was originally planned to have been there, helping with the blowing up bit and dying in the process.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

When trying to decide if a thing is "mainstream" don't look at what's in it. Look at who likes it. If it appeals to many individuals and many different types of people, the thing is mainstream. If it appeals only to narrowly defined groups, or very few people in general, it isn't mainstream.

*snicker* you mean like both of my AARP qualified parents? Sorry to break it to you, but buffy did have wide apeal. Thats probably why it stayed on the air for 7 years and seems to do well in the DVD market (at least they are mostly through the run of the show while I still wait for the damn SECOND SEASON of Law & Order to hit the shelves... grrr....). I know lots of people with lots of different tastes who liked it and still watch the reruns. Thats one of the major reasons I do call it mainstream. In fact, I don't really know anyone who doesn't like it at least a little, and I'm regularly amazed at how outside my usual geek crowd I socialize these days. (do you know that no one I work with knows what schroedingers (sp?) cat is? very weird...)

Anyway, enough of this. If it serves some purpose for you (or joss) to believe that angle or buffy were just too outside the tiny bubble of american thought to suceed, hey, it eases the sting of concellation and thats all for the best, right? I don't agree in the slightest, but the subject is far too subjective to have a hope of convincing each other, so back to wondering where if anywhere the 'franchise' will go from here...

So are all the buffy books I've seen just novelizations of the show, or has it opened up to outside stories, ala star trek. I mean, thats the way to keep a world alive, IMHO.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Umbran]

Actually, according to statements JMS had made, Ivanova was supposed to hook up with Byron, with Lyta in the background.

If you say so. Still looks to me like that generates a number of plot holes.

Also, keep in mind that there are almost no plot elements about the Teep War revealed...

IIRC there are elements of this addressed in the "Psi Corps Trilogy" by J. Gregory Keyes (based upon an outline by JMS, and pretty darned close to canon, I hear). Garibaldi has a real mad on for Bester. What he does is entwined with Lyta (as seen in their agreement in the end of the series). And that agreement is largely based on her being really deeply and personally cheesed off by Byron's death.

Sure, anything might have been written differently had other charcters been available. However, Lyta seems a bit too central to the plot of that final season for me to grok what you say JMS was planning. I'd be a bit more accepting if someone could give a link to where JMS makes such claims - the telephone game is a bit less than reliable.

 

[Diavolo]

it is a sad thing to see a good show go away. with last season's shows being as they were, i was unsure if i could stand another episode of angel. but now i've become interested in the show again. but now i hear it is coming to an end. the shows on tv that i can actually stand are becoming few and rare, and i look forward with great hope to them being immortalized in dvds. now with babylon 5, buffy, any half way desent star trek series, and soon angel gone, smallville seems to be the only show out there worth watching any tv for. i hope the creators of babylon 5 and buffy & angel, can come our with another show worthy of their greatness.

here's hoping
diavolo

 

[WizarDru]

IIRC there are elements of this addressed in the "Psi Corps Trilogy" by J. Gregory Keyes (based upon an outline by JMS, and pretty darned close to canon, I hear). Garibaldi has a real mad on for Bester. What he does is entwined with Lyta (as seen in their agreement in the end of the series). And that agreement is largely based on her being really deeply and personally cheesed off by Byron's death.

Sure, anything might have been written differently had other charcters been available. However, Lyta seems a bit too central to the plot of that final season for me to grok what you say JMS was planning. I'd be a bit more accepting if someone could give a link to where JMS makes such claims - the telephone game is a bit less than reliable.

The PsiCorps Trilogy isn't close to canon, It is. JMS was fairly emphatic on that point, that the novels (with minor editing errors aside) are a legitimate part of the series. Reading the unproduced scripts from Crusade confirmed the contents of the that and the mage trilogy in one fell swoop [Crusade taking place after the mage trilogy, and in the midst of the Psi Trilogy.

As for specifics, look no further than the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5, the single greatest piece of reference material to that illustrious series. Scroll down on this particular page to 'JMS Speaks' for his direct quote from Usenet. A quick google on the topic also produced some usenet postings from JMS, as well. Essentially, Ivanova's latent powers would have been kicked up, and she would have been very important to the arc. The core story wouldn't have changed much, though.

 

[Umbran]

*snicker* you mean like both of my AARP qualified parents?

Anecdotal evidence, unfortunately. A couple of old folks do not a movement make. Same for your personal experience with many different sorts of people liking the show. We're talking about a market with 280+ million potential viewers, right? The few folks a particular person knows aren't statistically relevant to such a large population, on top of them probably being a somewhat slanted sample for not being chosen randomly.

Sorry to break it to you, but buffy did have wide apeal.

Sorry to break it to you, but I've made no argument to the contrary.

Take a look - I've not said that Buffy didn't have wide appeal. I've not said it wasn't mainstream. I thought your support and evidence were weak, but that doesn't mean I disagree with the basic premise.

I actually think that Buffy got as close to "mainstream" as genre shows get, perhaps third only to Star Trek: The Next Generation and The X-Files. I'm not sure exactly how mainstream that is, though, because the term is poorly defined. It seems to me that "mainstream" isn't about what's in the show, or it's history, but instead is about who watches the show, and how much the show penetrates popular culture, and how much it influences the medium in which it operates.

Thats probably why it stayed on the air for 7 years and seems to do well in the DVD market

DVD sales are a poor indicator - you can (and frequently do) get very good DVD sales from a small, rabid following. I hear Firefly is selling pretty darned well - well enough to stand as partial support for taking the show to the silver screen. But Firefly was hardly mainstream.

If it serves some purpose for you (or joss) to believe that angle or buffy were just too outside the tiny bubble of american thought to suceed...

Hm. I must reiterate that I said no such thing. It serves no purpose for me at all. It serves my intellectual curiosity, and perhaps the discussion as a whole, to engage in a sidetrack on what qualifies as "mainstream".