The End of the Gaming Renaissance

[Hussar]

I was listening to a podcast interview (Fear the Boot) with jim pinto a while ago. jim had an interesting view on the history of the development of games. ((I'm sure I'm going to horribly mangle his point, but, the gist that I got was close))

Essentially, what he said was that from the time when RPG's first hit to the early 90's, with the rise of Vampire and White Wolf, we had the Renaissance age of RPG's. During this time, game designers could be talented amateurs banging away new games of vary degrees of excellence and distributors would pick up these games and get them into stores.

The games were, like art in the Renaissance, mostly small group affairs, down to almost a single guy banging them out, with very little introspection into the whys and wherefores of design. Decisions were made "by the gut" as it were.

Now, according to jim, we're in the Post Modern age of RPG's. Everyone and their brother has the tools to deconstruct a game, pull apart its every little detail and judge it with a critical eye. And, in addition, you can't get away with the "talented amateur" approach because the distributors won't pick you up. Your game might be the greatest thing in the world, but, if it's soft cover, black and white, you might as well not even bother.

What do you think? Does he have a point here?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Now, according to jim, we're in the Post Modern age of RPG's. Everyone and their brother has the tools to deconstruct a game, pull apart its every little detail and judge it with a critical eye. And, in addition, you can't get away with the "talented amateur" approach because the distributors won't pick you up. Your game might be the greatest thing in the world, but, if it's soft cover, black and white, you might as well not even bother.

What do you think? Does he have a point here?

Nope. Well, not about softcover/b&w. Most RPGs out there are one or both of those, I feel fairly confident saying.

Also no, the talented amateurs are still out in force, though I am *not* going to name names here.

As for deconstructing, I don't see that as a new thing either. Sure, the interwebs make this more of a visible phenomenon, and probably a more broadly collaborative one. So, I suppose it's 'worse' / 'better'. Or just more, perhaps.

Post-postmodern, maybe.

 

[Psychotic Jim]

What about the PDF market? That dynamic seems to be a bit different from the print market sold in stores. I'm not familiar with it at all, as I have only bought a few PDFs, but that probably should be taken into consideration as well.

 

[Hussar]

Really Aus Snow? How many soft cover and b&w rpg's can you name?

But, please, everyone, don't get too bogged down in my specific examples. Like I said, I'm probably horribly mangaling his point.

 

[Crothian]

It is correct to a point but seems to not take into consideration the PDF market or companies like IPR and the Forge. It could be these are not being considered because they don't do enough especially when compared to what could be done in the early 90's. It is interesting that he uses that time period and I'd love to here someone compaire what it was like then to what it was like in 2001 before the d20 bubble burst.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Really Aus Snow? How many soft cover and b&w rpg's can you name?

Yikes! You really want a list?!

Yeah, you probably do an' all. . . um. Thing is, there are so frickin' many! I'm not kidding here. I guess, the thing to do would be, check out the lists at RPGnet, P&P, or wherever else. Er, but I could try naming a few of the biggies, that are still in print. Eesh, even that might take time, getting names together. . .

 

[Hussar]

I think, honestly, we should set the pdf market aside for a moment. They're just so small that I'm not sure if they really matter all that terribly much. Yes, I know pdf is growing (and I'm doing my bit by buying) but, when a good selling pdf only sells a couple of thousand copies, we're talking vanity press sized runs.

No, I think it would be better to stick to print games for the moment.

I do think jim pinto has a point. Look at the difference between how a new game comes out today. You have literally dozens and sometimes hundreds (sometimes more) eyes seeing that game and having input into the final product. Compare that with say, 1e D&D which had maybe a few dozen people working on it and having input.

Forge, I think Crothian, is a perfect example of a Post Modernist approach to RPG's. They have attempted to quantify gaming elements, they've attempted to create a structural framework with which to criticize a game as well. This is exactly what a Post Modern critique is all about. Being able to create a conceptual framework with which to discuss elements of a work.

And, certainly, I agree Aus Snow, the Internet and the communities that have grown up around games have had a huge impact on how we discuss games.

 

[SSquirrel]

I tend not to take the Forge into account, but that's b/c I think the entire Forge theory system is stupid.

The pdf system doesn't need to be taken into account in this discussions context b/c the specific point made originally was that _distributors_ will not pick you up. Print media. Not drivethrurpg or whatever. Yes there are other viable routes and with the pdf market there is another possible market there.

I think it's certainly a fair assessment that in the 90s there was a lot of very interesting competition in the retail RPG market and a lot of it was produced by very small teams. After the d20 bubble burst, you see a lot more distributor reluctance to pick up unknown stuff as they got burned badly in the past. This has been talked about by several of the publishers on this board.

The way that 3E and 4E have become more visibly tied into specific numbers and the way people have been able to reverse engineer and show people the exact numbers involved has helped people be able to look at systems and pick them apart a bit better. This is a good thing, as it allows you to better institute balanced changes to your game.

 

[gamerprinter]

I disagree about the small market of PDFs

I disagree with the point about the PDF market being small, I'd say comparatively the print market is small compared to PDF products market and that will increase over time. Getting print publications out there is expensive and only the most successful companies can do it. Its a matter of having successful enough product that the distribution channels will accept your product to get it into the game stores.

While still in existence, that may fade and perhaps, all or most products will only be through PDF. Its easier and cheaper to do that. Also if you work with a Print-on-Demand (POD) then the PDF can still be ordered as a printed product.

To dismiss PDF out of hand as being too small (?) is kind of silly.

I see a not too distant future situation, where the big companies fall down due to a shrinking market, and the only market will be small publishers in the PDF market (and still have thousands of products available).

I will agree that quality of the finished product may go down with the smaller publishers, but that's not necessarily true either.

I have my own PDF product, and while I do need to improve the writing, editing, mechanics part of my product - I have mostly full color, high quality, high production value standards in my Kaidan - The Gift: Part 1 and its my first publishing product. Adventure 2 should be greatly improved over the first adventure - learning as I go, so to speak.

Basically, if a PDF product by a less skilled publisher uses crappy artwork only, they will have a more difficult time getting market share - so only the best will succeed.

But your point about PDF market being so small, is abjectly wrong.

There are far more publishers and products in PDF only format, then print will ever be. (Of course this may not be true for those publishers in the industry longer, but then PDF market is relatively young by comparison.) Its too easy and inexpensive to create one compared to any printed product - so there's obviously more marketing done that way. Even the big companies do it (except for WotC...)

GP

PS: as a young RPG publisher, looking at the future, though I hope to get into print market RPGs. I will never discard the PDF market, in fact, I am sure that will always be the primary market I work in, rely on and grow into. The print market is mostly "pie in the sky" for all but the largest, most well funded or successful companies (and those aren't the majority of publishers) So too small?!?! That's crazy talk!

 

[pawsplay]

Really Aus Snow? How many soft cover and b&w rpg's can you name?

Due to various issues, a lot of SJ Games's GURPS products are coming out in softcover, B&W.