The End of the Gaming Renaissance

[Clavis]

Not to thread-jack, but does anyone know or remember how White Wolf became so popular? And how quickly? How did they advertise? Etc.

I don't think that's thread-jacking at all, because it directly bears upon the the game market of the early 90s versus today.

Regarding Vampire, I can speak to my own experiences. My High-School game group was still playing 1st Edition AD&D past graduation and into 1993 (for a period of the late 80s and very early 90s 1st Edition and 2nd Edition materials were both easily available). By 94 our girlfriends expressed an interest in gaming something other than D&D. The D&D group didn't really want to convert to 2nd Edition, because we thought it had lost the "edge" that 1st edition had. I had seen Vampire advertised in Dragon, so I suggested it to everyone. "You get to play Vampires" was all the women needed to hear to want to play.

My AD&D game had already been role-play and story heavy, and we had even started doing a small amount of quasi-live action play. So the Live-action part of Vampire was an easy fit for the group as a whole, and really what kept the women interested. The actual group of players became majority female, and I understand that was fairly usual. Our games wound up about 90% live action, with us only sitting down and breaking out dice for combat scenes.

I think a lot of Vampire's initial popularity was a result of male players of 1st Edition who were into heavy metal, felt that 2nd edition had lost the "evil" edge they wanted from a game, and had Goth girlfriends who were into vampires. Those Goth girls were a major part of the playership, perhaps even the actual majority. And they played because it was a chance to be a vampire, not because they had any interest in other RPGs. D&D (or any other RPG for that matter) can never capture those players.

The fact that the Vampire books had edgy vampire art and fiction in them were a real draw. A lot of AD&D players never actually owned the game, but Vampire players wanted to own the books. Nobody that I know of bought Vampire for its game mechanics. They were interested in the subject matter and presentation.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

*blink*

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying, "It wasn't that D&D was seen to be inadequate in some areas, but the new game was seen to be more adequate in some areas."

I think he's saying that the WoD games were popular on their own merits with no relation to D&D. In other words, it wasn't disenfranchised D&D players that made Vampire et al so popular, but folks who were previously not into RPGs at all.

Of course the one catch is, how did those folks find out about Vampire? It may be that White Wolf's best advertisers were the few disenfranchised D&D players who brought in their non-gamer friends ("I know you think D&D is lame, but you've got to try Vampire/Mage/Werewolf").

One of the biggest challenges for RPG companies is, and always has been, how to market outside of the ghetto when the "extra-ghetto" reputation of RPGs is generally negative.

Not to thread-jack, but does anyone know or remember how White Wolf became so popular? And how quickly? How did they advertise? Etc.

Yes, thank you. That's what I was saying. It wasn't that everyone was tired of D&D and were just waiting for 3rd. The confusion may stem from the fact that Revised came out in 1998, a year after D&D 2nd was officially dead. I still love 2nd Edition and would love to play it again. But I remember the excitement I felt when I read the first edition Chicago by Night, it had a feel to it that I never got from reading Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. It may sound weird but the first edition vampire just had an energy to it that hasn't been matched by any TSR or Wizards project that I have seen and really hasn't been matched by White Wolf itself.

All I can remember from College was that some of the gaming guys I knew where able to bring their SOs into playing Magic the Gathering since it was basically a two player game. Up to that point I had been running D&D games, but then I couldn't find players because they were playing Magic. When Magic lost a bit of its luster I was able to get back the players by using Vampire the Masquerade and they brought their SOs with them who then brought their friends and then dragged us all off to the LARPs. And then eventually I was able to run D&D games again with a more diverse group.

 

[ggroy]

The fact that the Vampire books had edgy vampire art and fiction in them were a real draw. A lot of AD&D players never actually owned the game, but Vampire players wanted to own the books. Nobody that I know of bought Vampire for its game mechanics. They were interested in the subject matter and presentation.

How many of these such individuals still actually buy White Wolf titles?

Of the people I knew over the years who were "goth" back in the 80's and early 90's, very few of them continued buying White Wolf books ever since.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

How many of these such individuals still actually buy White Wolf titles?

Of the people I knew over the years who were "goth" back in the 80's and early 90's, very few of them continued buying White Wolf books ever since.

I can't say for certain about that since I didn't play any White Wolf games back in the day. However, most of the people I see playing now are not goth...but are still fascinated by vampires, folklore, and the like. They just don't dress all "goth".

 

[ggroy]

I can't say for certain about that since I didn't play any White Wolf games back in the day. However, most of the people I see playing now are not goth...but are still fascinated by vampires, folklore, and the like. They just don't dress all "goth".

Of the hardcore "goth" types I knew back in the day, the ones I knew of who still regularly buy White Wolf titles to this day (ie. world of darkness, etc ...), were individuals who were into 1E AD&D before the 1990's. Essentially these people were already tabletop PnP rpg players before they became "goth". The goth types I knew of who were not hardcore into tabletop PnP rpgs previously, typically didn't continue buying any White Wolf books after awhile.

 

[Filcher]

Yes, thank you. That's what I was saying. It wasn't that everyone was tired of D&D and were just waiting for 3rd. The confusion may stem from the fact that Revised came out in 1998, a year after D&D 2nd was officially dead. I still love 2nd Edition and would love to play it again. But I remember the excitement I felt when I read the first edition Chicago by Night, it had a feel to it that I never got from reading Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. It may sound weird but the first edition vampire just had an energy to it that hasn't been matched by any TSR or Wizards project that I have seen and really hasn't been matched by White Wolf itself.

This matches my experience.

Right after the time TSR was scrubbing all hints of satanism from their game, out comes Vampire, a game embracing everything D&D was fleeing from.

I remember thinking to myself how Vampire saved D&D from Magic by making RPGs cool again. I didn't want to play Vampire (apart from hanging out with the hot goth girls) but I could recognize that it was keeping my hobby alive.

 

[Erik Mona]

Although the first Vampire book(s) look amateurish by today's standards, it had VERY solid art direction and simply _looked_ better than the 2e AD&D stuff being published at the time.

There was a ROSE on the cover and full-page, brilliant black and white pieces from Tim Bradstreet that blew the competition out of the water. It would take a few years before TSR even really tried to publish an "art directed" line (Planescape and Dark Sun and Ravenloft).

We were still getting those awful "JEM" blue spot illos in our core rulebooks at the time. If a D&D book looked any good at all, it's because they accidentally got a good artist to work on it.

Vampire looked different and interesting and demanded to be played.

At least to me.

--Erik

 

[AllisterH]

In addition, pdfs have a major marketing disadvantage when compared to print. For a print work, people can see it on a shelf in a store or a friend's house. They can take it off the shelf and browse through it, or borrow it from the friend. The physical object helps get the product into people's minds.

Meanwhile, for a pdf, the people really have to come looking for it before they ever see it. If I am not specifically searching for your pdf product, I am unlikely to ever encounter it. It is may be sitting on my friend's hard drive, but I don't peruse his electronic library. I don't see the thing on the gaming table. I don't see it on the shelf when walking through a book store. Banner ads on websites are cheap, but they are horribly ineffective. Getting the market to even know your product exists is difficult for a pdf.

THIS

I think AT LEAST 50% of my RPG purchases are because of me browsing in my FLGS and then being impressed with the product and buying it.

If I'm reading chapter by chapter of a book, chances are, I'm going to buy it.

 

[Hussar]

We were still getting those awful "JEM" blue spot illos in our core rulebooks at the time. If a D&D book looked any good at all, it's because they accidentally got a good artist to work on it.

That's simply OUTRAGEOUS!

 

[M.L. Martin]

There was a ROSE on the cover and full-page, brilliant black and white pieces from Tim Bradstreet that blew the competition out of the water. It would take a few years before TSR even really tried to publish an "art directed" line (Planescape and Dark Sun and Ravenloft).

--Erik

Ravenloft: Summer 1990
Vampire: The Masquerade: Summer 1991
Dark Sun: Summer/Fall 1991

Planescape was 1994, but otherwise, it seems to have been an industry trend rather than TSR trying to play catch-up with White Wolf.