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The Essential Knight

It is telling to me that the three power point using psionic classes are the worst balanced in 4E at the moment.
Slight tangent, but frankly, I think it's more a problem with individual powers than the power point mechanic in itself. Every time this argument gets brought up, I feel like I'm in the General forum reading yet another diatribe about how 4E has totally abandoned simulation because of come and get it and martial healing. :erm:

As for the knight, there are pros and cons to having stances replace at-wills. As pointed out, it takes more effort to switch between stances and this can be an issue when you're dazed. However, (as has also been pointed out) this means that you get the benefit whenever you make a melee basic attack, e.g. when charging, or when making an opportunity attack, or when your warlord buddy gives you an extra basic attack.

It also isn't clear to me whether it is possible for a knight to swap out power strike for another fighter encounter power. Right now, the heading is showing up as "Fighter Attack" instead of "Fighter Attack 1" for me, so unless it gets changed, the answer is probably no. (Although if you ask me, it seems about in line with what you would expect from a 1st-level fighter encounter power, so even if it isn't "official", I would allow it to be taken as a 1st-level fighter encounter power, and I would allow a knight to swap it out for another 1st-level fighter encounter power.)
 

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Slight tangent, but frankly, I think it's more a problem with individual powers than the power point mechanic in itself.

That is absolutely true and it's always the same powers that are bought up, but we have psionic power coming out next month. All it takes is one low level at-will in any of those three classes and boom, they break the game utterly by high levels. Is that good class design? One that's so vulnerable to a single low level power being broken (usually because of poor scaling) that is completely breaks the entire class?

I know there are many examples of low level powers that people keep for their whole careers they are that good. Very few of those examples can be done every round at-will by the classes that have them, which does limit how much impact (even if a significant one) they can have. Turn Rain of Blows into an at-will power at epic though and well, the problem becomes obvious.

That's what happens with psionics. You have a single bad power at low levels and that class can use it at-will by epic. This is why I am not excited about major changes to the at-will/encounter/daily power structure.

Edit: Incidentally, I can't help but notice all the most notable game breaking psionic powers have yet to be errata'ed. Personally my hope is that Wizards is hitting the real problem, the PP system and not putting a bandaid on the broken at-wills. They'll just be replaced with something else anyway in time.

Every time this argument gets brought up, I feel like I'm in the General forum reading yet another diatribe about how 4E has totally abandoned simulation because of come and get it and martial healing. :erm:
You run an epic game where a psion turns a solo into a pincushion with a -7 to -9 all attacks and -7 to -9 all defenses at-will (Using an AP first round and usually an orb to extend one of the above penalties one round further) and you'll understand why this is a significant flaw.

For the record, I don't care about "simulation" and what I do care about game balance and consistency. I do like things that push the system or do something new, but I'd like it to be within a certain framework that the game has made. Abandoning encounter and daily powers just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If they do so, I'd really love reassurances we aren't looking at another psionics fiasco.

However, (as has also been pointed out) this means that you get the benefit whenever you make a melee basic attack, e.g. when charging, or when making an opportunity attack, or when your warlord buddy gives you an extra basic attack.
That is a minor advantage, especially because you might be adjacent to one enemy and get a MBA, hit it and of course waste your cleave damage. Albeit, some stances are just "always on" like the +2 damage, so I imagine those will be taken quite often.

It also isn't clear to me whether it is possible for a knight to swap out power strike for another fighter encounter power. Right now, the heading is showing up as "Fighter Attack" instead of "Fighter Attack 1" for me, so unless it gets changed, the answer is probably no.
I wonder if you copy and paste it the 1 will show up, like with Magic Missile on the mage. As that didn't show it was still a "Wizard Attack 1" in the name.

(Although if you ask me, it seems about in line with what you would expect from a 1st-level fighter encounter power, so even if it isn't "official", I would allow it to be taken as a 1st-level fighter encounter power, and I would allow a knight to swap it out for another 1st-level fighter encounter power.)
Yeah, I'm just concerned about them not having the same versatility actually.
 
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Well, he is a knight and that does make sense for a heavily armoured warrior. He also technically AoE marks right out of the gate as well, so heavier armour is more of a necessity in this case. Personally the best thing about the knight is that aura based marking, which is worded pretty well so you don't "double dip" a mark with another allied defender as well.

This is where I would love to see more encounter powers or similar. Just something to show they have some degree of versatility beyond "use MBA + minor effect" 90% of the time.

I think the knight will get a more standard mark as well. I think that is the Battle Guardian feature that they neglected to preview. If it's stuck with the aura alone, it is ridiculously weak.
 

Yeah, there's going to be problems with this class design. Its NOT going to be able to work with a bunch of existing feats. Melee Training? HEY, I have a fighter that is 100% WISDOM based! Well, even worse, 100% CONSTITUTION based, lol. Existing feats are going to totally bork this design.

Beyond that it just illustrates the big problem that fundamentally changing the class design principles means that every shared element that needs to work for the existing classes and the new fundamentally different class now needs to be redesigned to get along well with 2 different sets of design principles. This class is THEORETICALLY compatible with existing 4e, it is already NOT actually compatible. So what is going to happen? Are tons of feats/items/etc going to now get errata so they play well with the Knight? How is that going to affect their utility for the existing classes? Or will DMs simply be forced into saying "no, no, Mr Knight, YOU can't use existing 4e stuff, unless I look at it first." UGH!

I think it COULD be an interesting class design, taken simply on its own, but I don't look forward to the system surgery that is going to be needed to make it actually play nice with older material.
 

How is this "easier" for a new player than 2 at-wills for hitting things, an encounter that hits things slightly harder and a daily power that hits things slightly harder again?

It overwhelms people. That's why. I know a new player who just joined my group. She stares at her encounters and dailies blankly and doesn't really understand what they do or why she'd want to use them rather than her at-wills.

I've told her about 30 times now "You should use all your encounter powers before you switch to at-wills basically every combat." But she keeps looking at them and saying "Why would I use a power that moves 2 squares and hits someone rather than the at-will that stays where I am and hits someone?"

When I explain "Because the encounter power does 2[W] damage instead of 1[W] damage." she replies with something like "But I don't want to move."

She also thinks every enemy she's nearby is always marked to her. She's tried to activate her fighter mark power against enemies who shift away from her when she never marked them.

Things like this confuse her. I think this would be a great class for her. I could tell her "You roll this to hit, this to damage and you add this bonus. You can choose either to hit harder or to hit an extra person with your attacks. Also, once each battle you hit much harder." And that's pretty much how the class seems to play. It really does remind me a lot more of the 1e/2e fighter with a little bit more options and versatility. Which I like. I think 4e has become too complicated for everyone.
 

Yeah, there's going to be problems with this class design. Its NOT going to be able to work with a bunch of existing feats. Melee Training? HEY, I have a fighter that is 100% WISDOM based! Well, even worse, 100% CONSTITUTION based, lol. Existing feats are going to totally bork this design.
Your bug is my feature. If I can build a Dex-based fighter with that I'll be a happy panda!

And who cares if the new builds don't work with feat X or Paragon Path Y. Combine stuff that works and skip the rest. And frankly, these builds are targeted at newbies (how often do we need to repeat that??), not the type who try to combine stuff from every splatbook to build an ubercharacter.
 

It overwhelms people. That's why. I know a new player who just joined my group. She stares at her encounters and dailies blankly and doesn't really understand what they do or why she'd want to use them rather than her at-wills.

I've told her about 30 times now "You should use all your encounter powers before you switch to at-wills basically every combat." But she keeps looking at them and saying "Why would I use a power that moves 2 squares and hits someone rather than the at-will that stays where I am and hits someone?"

When I explain "Because the encounter power does 2[W] damage instead of 1[W] damage." she replies with something like "But I don't want to move."

She also thinks every enemy she's nearby is always marked to her. She's tried to activate her fighter mark power against enemies who shift away from her when she never marked them.

Things like this confuse her. I think this would be a great class for her. I could tell her "You roll this to hit, this to damage and you add this bonus. You can choose either to hit harder or to hit an extra person with your attacks. Also, once each battle you hit much harder." And that's pretty much how the class seems to play. It really does remind me a lot more of the 1e/2e fighter with a little bit more options and versatility. Which I like. I think 4e has become too complicated for everyone.

I agree, in theory, but this class is still going to be quite fiddly. "No, you can't use your cleave because you're dazed and you can't switch stances." That's just the tip of the iceberg. The fiddlyness in combat doesn't really come from having powers, it comes mainly from the core design of the 4e rules. No matter how simple a class is, even as simple as this one, its not going to be all that simple to play in practice.

Plus remember, we're still missing MAJOR portions of this class. We don't know how its marking mechanic is going to work, or what the higher level class features are going to do, etc. I'm sure they're designed to try to make things simpler, but the players that are at a rules level where they can't grasp action mechanics and such are just not going to ever be in much luck with 4e.

Once you consider the odd ways this class is going to act WRT to existing feats and such it may actually be HARDER to understand how to make your character effective and do the kind of stuff that other classes can do.
 

Yeah, there's going to be problems with this class design. Its NOT going to be able to work with a bunch of existing feats. Melee Training? HEY, I have a fighter that is 100% WISDOM based! Well, even worse, 100% CONSTITUTION based, lol. Existing feats are going to totally bork this design.

I have to agree with mkill, I don't see the problem. Knights multiclass well, woo.
 

I have to agree with mkill, I don't see the problem. Knights multiclass well, woo.

This has nothing to do with MC-ing. The existing MC system is in any case going to be effectively almost unusable with this class. You will be able to take an MC feat, which is fine, but power swaps simply won't work. Hybridizing maybe can be worked out, though I doubt anyone that wants to do that will use this class anyway.

The issue with Melee Training is that you can switch ALL OF YOUR COMBAT CAPABILITY away from strength to say constitution. This is an obvious extreme optimization right off the bat. Now, maybe there are enough other tie-ins to strength that it won't really be a great option. The point was this is only the example of a feat that is problematic that it took me 3 seconds to come up with. If I go rummage through the feats for 20 minutes I suspect I can come up with some that are clearly going to be problems. Ultimately the issue is with a radically different mechanic for progression you can't simply graft it into a core system that uses different assumptions.
 

I think the Knight is coming out good.

Defender Aura is easy: you only have to track if an enemy is adjacent to you to use it. I think all Knight markings are going to be similar in concept. The reference to other marked creatures is there just for interaction with other fighters.

Stances are quite easy to adjudicate, roo: you only have to decide, usually at the start of the encounter, which kind of enemy your'e going to take care of and choose a "whacker stance", or a "cautious stance", or whatever.

If all of the features are like this, I think it's going to be ok for novice players.
 

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