D&D 5E The "everyone at full fighting ability at 1 hp" conundrum

[Oofta]

I don't know if anyone's played Overwatch, but that's my immediate example of a video game that uses simple HP to great success. It's a game where you can get shot, and still move around at full capability, and nobody can try to claim that you didn't actually get hit, but it still feels like you're actually getting hurt. That level of abstraction isn't uncommon in video games.

I don't see why people can't apply that exact same level of disbelief to an RPG. It may not be perfectly realistic, but it's certainly close enough for our purposes.

Video games using HP goes back to at least the original Wolfenstein/Doom/Quake games.

The designers basically took the idea from D&D and said "good enough". Yeah, your avatar in Doom got more and more beat up but your capabilities never dropped. The basic concept is still widely used in most FPS video games.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Video games using HP goes back to at least the original Wolfenstein/Doom/Quake games.

The designers basically took the idea from D&D and said "good enough". Yeah, your avatar in Doom got more and more beat up but your capabilities never dropped. The basic concept is still widely used in most FPS video games.

I always found something satisfying in my Doom Guy being beat to hell (pun intended) and smiling with that oh so bloody face and still he's a fast moving damage dealing monster.

It made him feel special.

 

[Li Shenron]

"Why are you at full fighting power from 100 hp down to 1 hp, but then suddenly lose everything, and if you lose 99% of your hp, it make no sense to heal all of it after 8 hours?"

Within the core rules there's nothing to do but accept that HP are the easiest system, therefore the best one for most players.

As a variant, I am surprised that the DMG contains only a poor (and very random) "lingering injuries" module, when the core rules alredy included what's needed: exhaustion levels.

It requires a house rule, but only to decide when* to apply exhaustion levels. You can decide e.g. that when down to half your HP you gain one exhaustion level, or that when down to 0 HP you start gaining exhaustion levels instead of falling unconscious (depends how much you want the variant to make things better or worse to the players than the core rule).

*although I would probably like to also randomise exhaustion levels instead of applying them in order

Either way, you get both degrading combat efficiency and slower recovery.

 

[robus]

Seeing as we're talking about wounds at 0 HP, I'll take this opportunity to once more link to Eric Pommer's Wounds doc

From the intro:

A common complaint about D&D hit points is that there is no way to simulate a character who is suffering from debilitating wounds. A character at 1 hit point is still fully functional. At 0, they are unconscious.
These rules create a new condition in between perfectly fine and dead, without really adding any new book-keeping.

 

[Ratskinner]

Having the possibility of "getting your arm chewed off" is fine if you almost never get into a fight. But in most D&D campaigns, you get into a lot of fights. Dozens if not hundreds over the course of a campaign. Sooner or later something really bad will happen to your PC unless you are never attacked.

If the game has options like "lose your arm" it grinds to a halt unless you have a source of constant regeneration. I had a DM for a short period of time that would do this. If your PC was critically hit he rolled a dice to determine what was incapacitated or lopped off. If it was your head you died.

It wasn't fun if you had a melee character and we quit playing with him shortly after.

I'm fine with the cleric fixing the guy's arm (and note I didn't specify "off", but either way). I guess I've just seen too many "Cure Critical Wounds" used to heal what amounts to a bunch of scratches and bruises.

 

[Tony Vargas]

fixing the guy's arm (and note I didn't specify "off", but either way).

Whether he's had his arm literally off, or it's just mangled beyond all use or repair, he's gonna need that Regenerate or whatever - mere Cure..Wounds isn't going to cut(npi) it.

I guess I've just seen too many "Cure Critical Wounds" used to heal what amounts to a bunch of scratches and bruises.

Not to mention low-level characters at death's door, or at 1 hp, being healed back to full by a quick Cure Light Wounds.
So that was just a "light" wound you were bleeding to death from?

5e really had the right idea with just one Cure Wounds spell, the level of the slot can stay out of if more easily than the name of the spell.

 

[Ratskinner]

I don't know if anyone's played Overwatch, but that's my immediate example of a video game that uses simple HP to great success. It's a game where you can get shot, and still move around at full capability, and nobody can try to claim that you didn't actually get hit, but it still feels like you're actually getting hurt. That level of abstraction isn't uncommon in video games.

I don't see why people can't apply that exact same level of disbelief to an RPG. It may not be perfectly realistic, but it's certainly close enough for our purposes.

I don't play Overwatch, but my kids do. A lot of computer games also have gameplay artifacts like the screen flashing red, your aim knocked off, or a split-second stun effect to go with getting hit. Additionally, you usually have much faster in-game recovery. Plus, "getting killed" actually means "teleport back to the spawning area." It also doesn't seem like it takes that many hits to kill other PCs, either. Corpses also seem to fade away in mere seconds. -just a note.

It may be close enough for some purposes (obviously, we are here gabbing about it) but it doesn't really generate interesting play when a computer isn't doing the math for you.

 

[LordEntrails]

For all of you advocating some sort of degrading combat effectiveness as a PC is injured, what are your thoughts on the Death Spiral?

 

[Ratskinner]

For all of you advocating some sort of degrading combat effectiveness as a PC is injured, what are your thoughts on the Death Spiral?

I'm assuming I'm in that group. I play other games, and it works fine. Especially with some caveats: Primarily, not every "hit" has to inflict a consequence. (tuning the fraction that do is something that can really affect the feel of a game.) Secondarily, its handy if conditions have different durations. And I'm not even talking very technical ones. Fleeting, sticky, and lasting are enough.

One issue that it not-so-tangentially related to this is how most D&D groups think they must be out to totally win all fights, with no possibility of retreat or leaving survivors (unless to torture for intel). Since the consequences of most fights are simply a reduction in the party's renewable resources (healing resources or HP), you are encouraged to try to squeeze out a "win" with the dueling accountancy. So long as you come out of it with positive HP, its not really a danger.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I don't play Overwatch, but my kids do. A lot of computer games also have gameplay artifacts like the screen flashing red, your aim knocked off, or a split-second stun effect to go with getting hit. Additionally, you usually have much faster in-game recovery. Plus, "getting killed" actually means "teleport back to the spawning area." It also doesn't seem like it takes that many hits to kill other PCs, either. Corpses also seem to fade away in mere seconds. -just a note.

It may be close enough for some purposes (obviously, we are here gabbing about it) but it doesn't really generate interesting play when a computer isn't doing the math for you.

Some of the math isn't worth the time when it isn't automated. Things like hit-stun, which GURPS does try to model, is widely considered to be a bad rule for the tabletop.

The other stuff, though, is well within the realm of various RPGs. Characters have HP measured in the low hundreds, and attacks deal between ~10 and ~100, critical hits notwithstanding. In about the time it takes to line up one good shot, you could get healed for ~50 by the team medic, assuming they've dedicated their attention toward healing you. If you run out of HP, then you're effectively out for the rest of the encounter, but handwavy magic/tech will get you back on your feet in time for the next encounter.

From a narrative standpoint, a battle in Overwatch would play out almost exactly like a battle in D&D, if we could only accept that these swords and arrows are actually making contact when they hit. If you can suspend disbelief enough for one, then you should be able to suspend it enough for the other.