The Evolution of the Fighter - take 2

[mhensley]

I don't think a Goblin Minion is "fair" in the simulation - a Minion is something that never really existed before 4E, and is basically 1/4 of a normal creature of its level. I'd suggest using a regular level 1 Goblin.

In 3e, a goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so its worth 1/3 of a normal creature of its level. Sounds like a minion to me.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In 3e, a goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so its worth 1/3 of a normal creature of its level. Sounds like a minion to me.

Good point. How do its XP values compare in previous editions to other 1 HD monsters? Or is it not possible to make comparisons there? (I am not familiar with those editions.)

 

[Quartz]

Cleave is vitally important for the 3E fighter

 

[Obryn]

In 3e, a goblin is a CR 1/3 creature so its worth 1/3 of a normal creature of its level. Sounds like a minion to me.

Not so.

In 3e, a regular encounter for a group of 4 1st-level characters is EL1 - so 3 CR 1/3 goblins per 4 characters. Or, 1.33 characters per goblin.

In 4e, a regular encounter for a group of 4 1st-level characters is 400 XP. In this case, 16 goblin minions. Or, 4 goblins per character.

If you're comparing encounters across editions, each 3e goblin is worth a little more than 5 goblin minions.

-O

 

[Fifth Element]

And yes, the 4e Fighter was fighting Goblin Minions. That seemed the fairest comparison to earlier edition Goblins who also usually went down with one hit.

No, actually that's quite unfair. One of the design decisions that sets 4E apart from other editions is the number of hit points at 1st level, for both PCs and 1st-level monster. The "standard" 1st-level goblin is not a minion. Minions are explicitly spelled out as being 1/4 the challenge of a standard monster.

Your "down with one hit" standard is invalid because of this change. 1st-level PCs in earlier editions also often went down with one hit. This is no longer the case and is not a fair basis for comparison.

 

[Fifth Element]

If you're comparing encounters across editions, each 3e goblin is worth a little more than 5 goblin minions.

Precisely.

 

[pawsplay]

Seriously, an old style goblin was in every sense a 1st level soldier. Saying "they usually go down in one hit" is actually the thing we're testing here. How quickly do they go down? Making the 4e example a minion rather begs the question.

 

[Staffan]

I'm curious, why did the results for the 1E and 2E fighters come out differently, you list the same exact stats for fighter and goblin in both editions?

Weapon Specialization in 2e gives +1 to hit and +2 damage, as well as an extra attack every other round.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but you've really got to put the 4e fighter against standard goblins (not minions) to make any meaningful comparison.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Of course, I won't play (or not play) a game because of the number of goblins a fighter kills.* I'll play whichever is the Most Fun (tm).

That said, I think it's cool as all hell someone did this and had the know-how to do it. Seems neat to me.

I agree with the "gob minion should be a gob" and also the question as to how the heck 1e and 2e are any different.

Edit: Saw that the 2e FTR grabs weap spec. OK.

Good stuff!

Wis

* Unless the number is 7, in which I won't touch that particular edition.