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The exact power of wish

miracle can be used to gain attributes. nowhere does it say it can't in the spell description, it just gives examples. If you can cast the spell to say all of a suddenly turn the tide of battle (one of the examples) then granting attribute bonuses is insignificant compared to that.
 
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LordAO said:
But there is a HUGE difference between a single spell and an entire Feat!!

So your telling me that that let's say weapon focus, extend spell, or even power attack is more powerful than learning a new spell like polymorph self, finger of death, or even time stop?
 

Nowhere in Miracle's description does it say it CAN raise attributes, create magic items, etc. Wish specifically says that it can. If they wanted Miracle to be able to do those things they would have said so. Miracle and Wish aren't better than the other, they're just different. Wish can do more than Miracle, but is extremely expensive. Miracle can't do as much as Wish, but it can do alot of effects for free (such as duplicating other spells), while wishers still have to shell out 5000 XP no matter how they use wish. In that way, miracle is much better.
 

Yes, learning a feat is ALWAYS better than learning a spell. Spells have costs and other issues that feats don't. Besides, that's the way the rules are structured. Wizards can learn spells a whole lot easier than they can feats. A Sorcerer at lev 20 knows 43 spells, but only 7 feats. For the last time, there is NO equivalency between spells and feats. Spells are always easier to learn than feats. Wizards have no limit to the number of spells they know. But even the mightiest Wizard has only a limited feat selection. As far as those spells you mentioned, yes they are powerful spells. But just imagine how powerful those spells are with metamagics on them! If you don't think feats are powerful just check out the smackdown forum... A wizard doesnt need a wish to learn a new spell, but he can't learn new feats except when going up in level, just like everybody else. So of course getting a new spell isn't as good a use of wish as learning a new feat is. Learning a new spell is just making the wizard's life easier, since he isn't doing anything he normally couldn't. Getting a new feat is fundamentaly changing the rules of the game, as that is doing something he normally could never do, by the rules. But if you don't think it's fair to allow wizards to get new spells with wish if people cant get new feats with it, then don't allow either option. Just leave the game the way it is, the way it was meant to be.
 
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I understand Miracle, that the cleric cannot choose the exact effect, but the DM (his or her god) will do so. It will be beneficial, and the cleric might suggest a possible miracle (and especially can state what he needs it for), but that is to me the big difference between these two spells and would very well balance the extreme cost of wish.

Bye
Thanee
 


Re

The maximum ability increase you can gain from wish is 5. Maybe just limit the number of feats a person can wish for. Roleplay reason being that a wish can only give so much extra knowledge to the player. That's basically what a feat is, extra knowledge.

If you let people use wish for feats, probably just need to have a hard cap on the maximum number of feats a wish can provide just like ability increases.

For me, five extra feats seems fair. It is the same number of ability increases a person gets.
 

Look at any of the tomes or manuals that increase stats in the dmg.
Prereqs: Craft wondrous item, wish or miracle
While you are at it, look at the ring of three wishes.
Prereqs: Forge ring, wish or miracle

Now what is it that miracle can't do again? *blink*
 

Sneaky, Berk, sneaky! Not bad!

The difference is still, that you have to pay the XP to create an item that allows the same power that a wish does, even if using miracle to create it.

So the point is, you cannot circumvent the XP loss, if you want to increase your personal power wish-style.

Bye
Thanee
 


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