The exact power of wish

[Larcen]

Wasn't their a LONG thread not too long ago that talked about this whole Miracle vs. Wish thing? They even brought up the item creation requirements, like Berk did.

If I recall, the majority thought was that Miracle couldn't do things that Wish specifically stated, like inherent stat bonuses, despite the (very vocal) minority position that felt it could by virtue of the item creation arugment.

Alas, I think that thread was lost with the old boards.

BTW Thanee, nice avatar. A famous german celebrity?

 

[Thanee]

I don't think she's really famous!

I just found this on a website: "She is Italian by birth, though she was born in South Africa, Her Father is Italian and her Mother is Dutch." So no, she's not german.

Miracle can do the same things as wish by using item creation, but it then also has the same XP cost (and more) as wish, so the point is rather irrelevant.

Miracle can - without spending XP - not do the same things as wish!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Junkheap]

So to create a ring of wishes via miracle, does it cost you any xp,
or how much xp does it cost?

And PS Miracle is so much more powerfull than wish it is not even funny. I would not even dare a mage to even memorize wish. Whats the point? The only need for it is to get stats up. Its pretty DAMN expensive to use it as a miracle clone. Not to mention, you can use miracle to make the items that wish is used for anyway. I think wish should NOT have had ANY restictions to any spells below 9th. Then it would be worth it.

Wish right now can copy any spell form 6th lvl or lower, with restrictions being the prohibited schools if any.(5000 XP).

Wish can also copy any spell from 5th lvl or lower, with no restrictions even if its prohibited(5000 XP)

Miracle can copy ANY spell from 7th or lower. NO XP!
Any other clerical spell from 8th lvl or lower, includin your DOMAIN! (NO XP!)

I mean, i cant even see a comparison between the two. The 15000 gp item is kinda pointless because you would probably spend less xp making it.

On the feat idea, i would never allow it, because it doesn't say so. If you do allow it, then miracle should allow it as well.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, that's why I strictly read miracle as such, that the cleric has no direct control over the actual miracle happening. Otherwise it would be just too powerful compared to wish.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Larcen]

Well, fortunately, since Miracle is under your god's control, this means less chance for a mishap and a guaranteed (?) good result. Overall, as has already been stated Miracle is MUCH better and more widely used, I would imagine.

Does anybody want to take a guess at how valuable a magic item Miracle can grant you? And how many XPs said item would cost? (Hey, hopefully someday my cleric will have that spell. )

(Thanee, South Africa? When you consider another gorgeous blonde, Charlize Theron, also hails from South Africa, makes you wonder what's in the water there! )

 

[Xeriar]

I understand Miracle, that the cleric cannot choose the exact effect, but the DM (his or her god) will do so. It will be beneficial, and the cleric might suggest a possible miracle (and especially can state what he needs it for), but that is to me the big difference between these two spells and would very well balance the extreme cost of wish.

Bye
Thanee

Yup. I would allow a Cleric to use Miracle to increase his wisdom score, and even do it out-of succession, but most gods aren't going to grant selfish requests to worshippers (especially if the gods themelves are selfish).

 

[Al]

Look at any of the tomes or manuals that increase stats in the dmg.
Prereqs: Craft wondrous item, wish or miracle
While you are at it, look at the ring of three wishes.
Prereqs: Forge ring, wish or miracle

Now what is it that miracle can't do again? *blink*

Well, I'm afraid I'm a veteran of the infamous six-page (I think) Wish vs. Miracle thread. And the 'antis' argument was this (and I subscribe to it):

The prerequisites for making a Brilliant Energy weapon are Gaseous Form and Continual Flames- but casting these do not normally allow a weapon to become Brilliant Energy.
The prerequisites for making a Vorpal weapon are Keen Edge and Death Spell- but casting these do not normally make a weapon Vorpal.
The prerequisites to make a Rapier of Puncturing is Harm: but this does not normally do Con damage.

See the pattern?

The point is: just because a spell is listed in the prereqs, it doesn't mean that that spell can emulate the power of the item, under normal circumstances. Thus, even though Miracle is a prerequisite for Tomes and the like, the normal use of the spell cannot emulate the items' ability.

 

[fuindordm]

Tome and Blood has a feat "Extra Spell" that gives sorcerers and bards an extra known spell. So it seems that WotC would consider points 2 and 3 equivalent.

Most feats are about as useful as +2 to an attribute, some less so. I would say it depends on the feat. Improved initiative or weapon focus? Sure. Spellcasting prodigy? Maybe... but I'd probably require 2 wishes for that one.

Does anyone give their players extra-strength wishes? A wish from an extra-powerful entity, for example, that counts as 2x or 3x the spell in terms of power but can't be split into multiple wishes? For example, it's kind of nice to have a player wish for awesome strength and get an immediate +2, rather than getting a ring of 3 wishes :

"I wish I were stronger. Stronger! STRONGER!" Bwahaha! as the wishes take effect in succession.

--Ben

 

[Larcen]

Tome and Blood has a feat "Extra Spell" that gives sorcerers and bards an extra known spell. So it seems that WotC would consider points 2 and 3 equivalent.

Most feats are about as useful as +2 to an attribute, some less so. I would say it depends on the feat. Improved initiative or weapon focus? Sure. Spellcasting prodigy? Maybe... but I'd probably require 2 wishes for that one.

Does anyone give their players extra-strength wishes? A wish from an extra-powerful entity, for example, that counts as 2x or 3x the spell in terms of power but can't be split into multiple wishes? For example, it's kind of nice to have a player wish for awesome strength and get an immediate +2, rather than getting a ring of 3 wishes :

"I wish I were stronger. Stronger! STRONGER!" Bwahaha! as the wishes take effect in succession.

--Ben

You know you bring up a good point. It occurs to me that none of this would be a problem if Wish was removed from the spell lists and simply kept as a powerful magical effect available only to gods and artifacts.

Life would be so much more simpler then because the discovery, granting, and power of each individual wish would be solely under the DM's control.

This is kind of like how 3E made common 1E/2E powerful magical items into unique artifacts... e.g. Staff of the Magi. Well, if some magic items are so powerful that they had to be dropped from the "standard" lists, then why not spells too?

While we are at it, drop Time Stop too.

 

[justinsluder]

Well, my DM wasn't as much of a punk when I finally made my wishes I had coming to me. He decided that one would suck, and that one would be really, really, REALLY good.

First wish: I wish to be more intelligent than myself, right now.
Result: +1 inherent bonus to Int, -2 penalty to Str.

Second wish: I wish for the ability to craft magical wands, without suffering the loss of any of my current abilities.
Result: I gained the Craft Wand feat. Also all spells and magic items are cast at +5 caster level, and there is no dice cap for spells.

Now before you go and say my DM is an idiot let me say this: The funeral procession for the former Greater Goddess Tahkisis will be held Sunday, July 21.

Also, the official ascension ceremony for myself and my three companions will take place Saturday, July 20th.

Take care,

Justin Sluder, aka Thomianos Mirylar