The exact power of wish

[Junkheap]

Well, I'm afraid I'm a veteran of the infamous six-page (I think) Wish vs. Miracle thread. And the 'antis' argument was this (and I subscribe to it):

The prerequisites for making a Brilliant Energy weapon are Gaseous Form and Continual Flames- but casting these do not normally allow a weapon to become Brilliant Energy.
The prerequisites for making a Vorpal weapon are Keen Edge and Death Spell- but casting these do not normally make a weapon Vorpal.
The prerequisites to make a Rapier of Puncturing is Harm: but this does not normally do Con damage.

See the pattern?

The point is: just because a spell is listed in the prereqs, it doesn't mean that that spell can emulate the power of the item, under normal circumstances. Thus, even though Miracle is a prerequisite for Tomes and the like, the normal use of the spell cannot emulate the items' ability.

That was not the point of my post. Even if your DM doesnt allow you to miracle an abilitly point, you can just as easily CREATE the magicl item needed to do this. Either way you look at it, a cleric can use miracle to raise his ability scores. And even if the DM charges me 5000 XP to do it(Make the ring of wishes, 5000XP being for each miracle), i wouldnt really care. It is no worse than a wish in that regard, and certainly better in all others.

On regards to the feat by wish again, i am rethinking it and i don't really know what i would do. It would be a case by case situation. I could see myself as a DM giving out a feat from a wish/miracle due to the fact that items give out feats.

But if am correct, most items that grant feats, grant the feats that are athletic/strength/skill based, not magic based. That is, i think i saw gloves in MOF that give 2 weapon fighting, but i don't think i have ever seen an item give out a meta magic feat.(Correct me if i am wrong).

So since you can get the above based feats from magical items, i see no reason not to hand it out with a wish. He is costing himself more XP than just creating the item. But meta magic/item creation....i would definitley say no.

 

[LordAO]

Look at any of the tomes or manuals that increase stats in the dmg.
Prereqs: Craft wondrous item, wish or miracle
While you are at it, look at the ring of three wishes.
Prereqs: Forge ring, wish or miracle

Now what is it that miracle can't do again? *blink*

Yeah and a cloak of charisma requires charm person. Look, if you want to get into item creation feats, I can get even weirder. No, miracle CAN NOT raise attributes. Don't you think they would have listed that under Miracle's description if it could? On the other hand, Wish quite implicitely states that it can. You never hear them say "Miracling" for more attributes, only wishing. The reason they put multiple prerequisites on items is to give more people the chance to make those items and to give clerics a way to raise their attributes, etc.

 

[Junkheap]

Yeah and a cloak of charisma requires charm person. Look, if you want to get into item creation feats, I can get even weirder. No, miracle CAN NOT raise attributes. Don't you think they would have listed that under Miracle's description if it could? On the other hand, Wish quite implicitely states that it can. You never hear them say "Miracling" for more attributes, only wishing. The reason they put multiple prerequisites on items is to give more people the chance to make those items and to give clerics a way to raise their attributes, etc.

Ok, i don't want to take this thread off topic, but it frustrates me when people dont read previous posts before they answer.
Sure miracle can't give you abilitly raises by casing it. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT! BUT miracle can be used to make

1 - Ring of wishes
2 - ALL the enhancement to ability items.

NOW, that being said, how does miracle NOT help you with getting abilities raised? It is the exact same thing as using a wish spell. Its like saying an 18th lvl cleric cant cast mass haste or polymorph other or wall of force or disintergrate. Sure he can. Just because he cast's miralce to do it doesn't mean he can't.

You are just side stepping the issue. The end result is the same, with no more XP loss.

 

[LordAO]

As far as not reading previous posts, I'm not the only one who was typing a reply while someone else posted one. So sorry if I offended you. Look I'm tired of arguing about the whole Wish vs Miracle thing. This is irrelevent to the discussion of whether or not Wish can be used to get feats. If you want to allow Miracle to do everything wish can and still keep all of the advantages it has over wish, that's your problem. Don't come crying to me when Clerics dominate your game (which they do enough of that already). If someone would like to start a Cleric vs Mage topic, please do, but let's not get sidetracked any more from the real issue at hand.

 

[Junkheap]

LordAO: I take no offense from your comments, and i am sorry if i sounded harsh.

If you look through all my posts, i never said miracle did the same things wish did! I just showed you miracle can do the same things wish can(albeit in another way), but the end result being the same.

A mage casts wish if he needs to get his int up.
A cleric, crafts a rings of wishes(using miracle, it is a pre req), and then uses the ring to raise his wisdom. Its one more step, thats all.

Thats all i was saying, nothing else, nothing more.

 

[Al]

That was not the point of my post. Even if your DM doesnt allow you to miracle an abilitly point, you can just as easily CREATE the magicl item needed to do this.

Quite so- but I never said that you couldn't .

To be fair though, that is a different matter entirely. For one, you need a feat (just casting Miracle you wouldn't) and secondly, you'd need to incur downtime (just casting Miracle, again, this is unnecessary). So there is a subtle difference.