The Expanse (Spoilers)

It's arguable that if Marco had died at that point, his movement would have splintered, and the anti-Marco sentiment among Belters wouldn't have reached a critical mass necessary to create the three-party alliance that eventually led to the transport union and a more stable peace.

But sure, if you value one group of human lives more than another, not killing someone from the other side when you have the chance seems like foolishness.
 

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payn

Legend
It's arguable that if Marco had died at that point, his movement would have splintered, and the anti-Marco sentiment among Belters wouldn't have reached a critical mass necessary to create the three-party alliance that eventually led to the transport union and a more stable peace.

But sure, if you value one group of human lives more than another, not killing someone from the other side when you have the chance seems like foolishness.
GIF by SYFY
 

Ryujin

Legend
It's arguable that if Marco had died at that point, his movement would have splintered, and the anti-Marco sentiment among Belters wouldn't have reached a critical mass necessary to create the three-party alliance that eventually led to the transport union and a more stable peace.

But sure, if you value one group of human lives more than another, not killing someone from the other side when you have the chance seems like foolishness.
I'll avoid Godwinning the thread with the typical time travel conundrum :ROFLMAO:
 

Stalker0

Legend
Yes, it was strategically short sighted, but ethically? In that moment Marco no longer posed an imminent mortal threat, so it isn't actually justified to kill him and everyone on his ship. It's a real quandary how you should deal with someone you suspect will hurt others, but whom you don't have the ability to detain.
Marco is the leader of your enemy, his continued existence is an imminent mortal threat. And there is no suspect here, you know the second Marco gets back on his feet he will kill again, they know this man. And of course....he does, the first chance he gets.

I can absolutely respect why Holden couldn't pull the trigger, it was a very human reaction. But it was also, 100%, the wrong thing to do, and there is no need to justify it. Holden just f'ed up, plain and simple.
 

payn

Legend
Marco is the leader of your enemy, his continued existence is an imminent mortal threat. And there is no suspect here, you know the second Marco gets back on his feet he will kill again, they know this man. And of course....he does, the first chance he gets.

I can absolutely respect why Holden couldn't pull the trigger, it was a very human reaction. But it was also, 100%, the wrong thing to do, and there is no need to justify it. Holden just f'ed up, plain and simple.
Right. The altruistic choice seems like it is the right one, but thats just because Holden lucked out; yet again. They piss off the wormhole aliens and that kills Marco instead. Take away the miracle option and Holden gets everyone killed.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Right. The altruistic choice seems like it is the right one, but thats just because Holden lucked out; yet again. They piss off the wormhole aliens and that kills Marco instead. Take away the miracle option and Holden gets everyone killed.
Holden did ultimately luck out, but Marco did kill many more people before that time (including Kamila's companion ship and a good portion of her crew). So we definately see repurcussions to Holden's failure, yes he doesn't suffer any political consequences, but I'm sure there is some classic Holden guilt bottled up about it.
 

payn

Legend
Holden did ultimately luck out, but Marco did kill many more people before that time (including Kamila's companion ship and a good portion of her crew). So we definately see repurcussions to Holden's failure, yes he doesn't suffer any political consequences, but I'm sure there is some classic Holden guilt bottled up about it.
Everyone should feel some guilt about killing, even when justified. Even though I think 1000% it would have been the right thing to explode the Pella, I would expect Holden to feel terrible about it still.
 

MarkB

Legend
As much as I can see how the family connection left Holden conflicted, and I feel for him having to make that choice, I can't really summon much sympathy for Filip and his redemption arc. He's not an idiot, he knew the consequences of what he was doing when he set the rocks on course, and he manages to directly kill at least one other person along the way of his moral quandary.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I can't really summon much sympathy for Filip and his redemption arc.
I wouldn't call it a redemption arc. At the end of the day, Filip did reject his father, but you also don't get the impression that he's going to join the other side or anything.

It seems more that he's given up on the events, and just gone solo, likely haunted by his guilt. But he hasn't really done anything "redemptive", just more lost. Of course, it always leaves something for the future where maybe Filip does get a chance to redeem himself, but I don't think that's the picture we are supposed to have of him at this point in time.
 

Staffan

Legend
As much as I can see how the family connection left Holden conflicted, and I feel for him having to make that choice, I can't really summon much sympathy for Filip and his redemption arc. He's not an idiot, he knew the consequences of what he was doing when he set the rocks on course, and he manages to directly kill at least one other person along the way of his moral quandary.
I can have some sympathy for Filip as essentially being a child soldier brought up in a cult. As best I can find, Filip is supposed to be fifteen when first introduced stealing Martian stealth tech and having a key role in the bombardment of Earth. And he has lived his entire life being part of his father's OPA splinter cell, constantly being told about how evil the Inners are and what a horrible person his mother was for abandoning him.

I mean, that doesn't absolve him of being a war criminal, but it does explain it.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Everyone should feel some guilt about killing, even when justified. Even though I think 1000% it would have been the right thing to explode the Pella, I would expect Holden to feel terrible about it still.
This. Anyway.....it is only one part of a much bigger story.

All in all, I liked the show very much, and recommend it to people. Like Holden, it wasn't perfect, but it was good.
 

Ryujin

Legend
Marco is the leader of your enemy, his continued existence is an imminent mortal threat. And there is no suspect here, you know the second Marco gets back on his feet he will kill again, they know this man. And of course....he does, the first chance he gets.

I can absolutely respect why Holden couldn't pull the trigger, it was a very human reaction. But it was also, 100%, the wrong thing to do, and there is no need to justify it. Holden just f'ed up, plain and simple.
"I was just playing my alignment. It's what my character would do."
 





James Holden is a classic example of a guy falling upwards through life.
He successfully investigated an interplanetary conspiracy that could have wiped out all life on earth. He bluffed his way through a blockade, managing to save dozens of people who otherwise would have suffocated and died on a dying base. He rescued the UN Ambassador and captured a man who was perhaps the chief motivation for a war between Mars and Earth. He deescalated a crisis at the ring gate and prevented the whole solar system from being annihilated. He then again successfully investigated alien ruins and brought back evidence of an existential threat to all civilized life in the galaxy. And he led the crew that defanged the Free Navy's asteroid attacks, then outwitted the defenses of a seemingly impregnable fortress within the ring gate, and then used his superior positioning to defeat Marco Inaros and most of the Free Navy fleet.

He maybe gets lucky by stumbling upon situations where he can make a difference, but then he chooses the right response to save a bunch of lives. And that response, most of the time, is to not try to win by killing people, but by exposing villains and understanding complex threats so we aren't vulnerable to them.

I think he's my favorite space captain in all media.
 

Horwath

Hero
I agree with Clarissa: never feel bad about not killing someone.

Yes, it was strategically short sighted, but ethically? In that moment Marco no longer posed an imminent mortal threat, so it isn't actually justified to kill him and everyone on his ship. It's a real quandary how you should deal with someone you suspect will hurt others, but whom you don't have the ability to detain.

Do you kill someone, assuming that you're preempting harm? Or do you refuse to kill them, because it's a punishment you cannot take back, and you can't know they'd do something in the future that would need to be stopped with lethal force.
Marco Inaros and everyone on his ship were all guilty of war crime/genocide.
Nuke to the face would be simple justice.
 

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