Philotomy Jurament
First Post
That's not sacrilege at all; I agree. It really is a great time to be a gamer (even a crazy-ass, lunatic fringe old-school gamer -- or maybe that should be *especially* a crazy-ass, lunatic fringe old-school gamer...)
The Fall of Castle Zagyg?
- Thread starter Korgoth
- Start date
Darrin Drader
Explorer
I'm not going to bash Gail, but I will say that I've recently taken an interest in C&C, and the reason was because this was the system Castle Zagyg was designed for, and that this was the system Gygax himself picked as being close enough to his original work to qualify as a true successor. The fact that this will not be fully realized under C&C makes me sad, but I look forward to seeing what they do end up doing with it.
Grimstaff
Explorer
Imagine This:
Yggsburgh
Dark Chateau
Yggsburgh Class Options and Skills
Yggsburgh Players Maps
Yggsburgh The Outs Inn
The East Mark Gazetteer
Yggsburgh Town Hall
Yggsburgh Moat Gate
Yggsburgh The Storehouse Disctrict
Yggsburgh Eastern Corner
Castle Zagyg Upper Works
And no..... Dungeons of Castle Zagyg!
Yes, imagine paying $165.00 for a mountain of support material for a Dungeon that never materializes! Hah, that'd be a nightmare!
Oh...wait....
DaveMage
Slumbering in Tsar
yes, imagine paying $165.00 for a mountain of support material for a dungeon that never materializes! Hah, that'd be a nightmare!
Oh...wait....
lol!
JeffB
Legend
Imagine This:
Yggsburgh
Dark Chateau
Yggsburgh Class Options and Skills
Yggsburgh Players Maps
Yggsburgh The Outs Inn
The East Mark Gazetteer
Yggsburgh Town Hall
Yggsburgh Moat Gate
Yggsburgh The Storehouse Disctrict
Yggsburgh Eastern Corner
Castle Zagyg Upper Works
And no..... Dungeons of Castle Zagyg!
Yes, imagine paying $165.00 for a mountain of support material for a Dungeon that never materializes! Hah, that'd be a nightmare!
Oh...wait....
It is funny, and it's sad at the same time. I don't know if Gary or TLG or both are to blame for the way CZ product line was handled (i.e. the laundry list of everything BUT what people really wanted) and certainly the authors did a bang-up job, but it was handled very poorly from the word "go".
I've decided to hold off on a UW purchase, not because I'm upset at TLG, but rather it's far from complete. I'm not prepared to finish CZ off myself using TLGs version, nor am I likely to buy the new version because of whom is *not* working on it. Perhaps if Frank Mentzer was to be involved, I'd consider it, but thats about it (No fan of RJK here after the Necro and PPP fiascos)
I think the foot-dragging on Castle Zagyg lies at Gary's feet, and when you think about I think I understand the reason why: for 30+ years people have been building Greyhawk Castle up as "the ultimate dungeon," "Gygax's masterpiece," "the dungeon that defines the game," and so on. But that's not really what it was. In truth, Greyhawk Castle was Gary's first dungeon, created and modified on the fly as he developing the game without any of the perspective or experience he brought to his later, published, adventures (G and D series, S series, ToEE, Necropolis, etc.). Greyhawk Castle wasn't written for publication, or with any higher or more permanent goal than entertaining the members of the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association.
How many of you, especially those of you who have published professionally and established something of a reputation for yourselves, would want the very first dungeon you ever designed to be published, and especially to be hyped far and wide prior to its release as "the ultimate masterpiece, 35 years in the making"? I strongly suspect that, when Gary looked back at his maps and notes from the early 70s he was, frankly, a little embarrassed by them, and didn't think they held up nearly as well as his later works, which they would inevitably be judged against. He knew that if people saw his maps and notes, designed on the fly in 1972 and 73, the reaction would be "is that all there is?"
But, at the same time, the audience was clamoring for them, and had been doing so for close to 30 years (Gygax first announced that Greyhawk Castle was being prepared for publication (by Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) in The Dragon in 1980, and I assume that decision was made in response to fan demand), and he knew it would be a high-profile release and a big seller, meaning more royalties for him and his family. So, what he decided to do was, essentially, pull a fast one -- not release his actual vintage maps and notes, but rather strip out the most memorable and famous elements from them and plug those into a new dungeon, designed to his current design standards in light of 35 years of experience.
The downside to that is that it required him to write, essentially from scratch, a massive dungeon of, even in its appreviated version, 20+ levels, which is something he simply wasn't up to, motivationally or, after he had his stroke, physically. Gary wasn't interested in re-writing his old material, especially so much of it -- he wanted, instead, to design new stuff -- Yggsburgh, the Upper Works, and material for Lejendary Adventure. So the project floundered and little if any progress was made on it -- Gary may have prepared an outline and drawn some new maps, but I think that was about it, at least until Jeff Talanian was hired. Note that Jeff, by his own admission, never even saw Gary's original Greyhawk Castle maps -- what he was working from was a set of maps redrawn by Davis Chenault, ostensibly based on Gary's originals. Jeff may have thought he was fleshing out the original material, but it seems more likely what he was actually doing was helping draft an entirely new dungeon containing key famous elements of the original. I grumble at that decision, it's not what I wanted to see, but it is what Gary wanted and I think I understand his reasons why.
How many of you, especially those of you who have published professionally and established something of a reputation for yourselves, would want the very first dungeon you ever designed to be published, and especially to be hyped far and wide prior to its release as "the ultimate masterpiece, 35 years in the making"? I strongly suspect that, when Gary looked back at his maps and notes from the early 70s he was, frankly, a little embarrassed by them, and didn't think they held up nearly as well as his later works, which they would inevitably be judged against. He knew that if people saw his maps and notes, designed on the fly in 1972 and 73, the reaction would be "is that all there is?"
But, at the same time, the audience was clamoring for them, and had been doing so for close to 30 years (Gygax first announced that Greyhawk Castle was being prepared for publication (by Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) in The Dragon in 1980, and I assume that decision was made in response to fan demand), and he knew it would be a high-profile release and a big seller, meaning more royalties for him and his family. So, what he decided to do was, essentially, pull a fast one -- not release his actual vintage maps and notes, but rather strip out the most memorable and famous elements from them and plug those into a new dungeon, designed to his current design standards in light of 35 years of experience.
The downside to that is that it required him to write, essentially from scratch, a massive dungeon of, even in its appreviated version, 20+ levels, which is something he simply wasn't up to, motivationally or, after he had his stroke, physically. Gary wasn't interested in re-writing his old material, especially so much of it -- he wanted, instead, to design new stuff -- Yggsburgh, the Upper Works, and material for Lejendary Adventure. So the project floundered and little if any progress was made on it -- Gary may have prepared an outline and drawn some new maps, but I think that was about it, at least until Jeff Talanian was hired. Note that Jeff, by his own admission, never even saw Gary's original Greyhawk Castle maps -- what he was working from was a set of maps redrawn by Davis Chenault, ostensibly based on Gary's originals. Jeff may have thought he was fleshing out the original material, but it seems more likely what he was actually doing was helping draft an entirely new dungeon containing key famous elements of the original. I grumble at that decision, it's not what I wanted to see, but it is what Gary wanted and I think I understand his reasons why.
You would be wrong, he was very proud of his work. He wouldn't have engaged in this if he didn't think it would work. I knew the man personally and had discussed a lot of these issues over the last 18 years. He certainly wasn't embarrased by the castle.
To be honest, sales were not of primary concern for Gary, more than ownership of material. He was always willing to take less of a front-rate and instead worked on getting sales cuts. This is why he never worked "for hire" much after he left TSR--ownership and creative control was more important to him. This is why most people who worked for him did so "on spec", and why you didn't see a lot of "big names" working with him on his post-TSR projects.
Gary was willing to leave D&D behind and did so, creating two new game systems. I think the desire to do Castle Greyhawk came from 2 big insights Gary had in the early part of this decade. First, he discovered via the Internet that there was a good core fan base of the 1st Edition D&D game system that still existed. Secondly, I think he was convinced that now with the OGL--ironically a concept he thought was "dumb" from the publishers standpoint and something he'd never do himself--he could legally publish his work without having to go through TSR/Wizards. He dabbled with dual-stat stuff to help with popularity. I should know--I was the guy who had to take the damn Hall of Many Panes 3.0 stats and convert them to 3.5 format. (Not a fun task, and I apologize for any conversion mistakes that came from that).
Gary was a pretty prolific writer. I think the big problem was a lot of the stuff was sketchy notes and most of it was in "his head". Two key things hurt the project--first, his own illness forced him into part-time status--before he used to work 60 hours a week on writing and writing research. Secondly, Rob Kuntz was supposed to help, but disagreements and Rob's own reliability issues forced him out of the project.
I think those two things hurt it beyond recovery. I liked Yggsburg, but I wasn't into the expansion project--I suspect it was a way to keep people interested because the Castle at the speed would take a few years before somebody could publish something of value.
Also, note that Gary's always intended to rewrite as part of the editing process before publishing. I've contributed to his projects in minor ways and almost all the time he'd edit things so stuff would get through the Gygax filter. Jeff's stuff would have been sent back to Gary for clarification. But that can't happen now.
In short, like I said before, CZ to me will be looked about by fans as the "Giant Rat of Sumatra", something who's dreamed ideal will probably be better than the reality. I actually hope Gail and the others stay focused on getting Gary's pure work published and table CZ. I can guarantee you LA will be handled well, one of Gary's trusted authors for LA, Jon Creffield is working on that stuff, and there are some good manuscripts coming that haven't seen publication in a decade.
Grimstaff
Explorer
Oh sure, blame it on Rob! 
I have to say, it'll be interesting to see what format CZ will take if it does ever hit shelves. C&C would have been an easy conversion to older editions of D&D, but LA would be a nightmare, and I don't think a core d20 version would scale well with the original.
Either way, my Yggsburgh book will be useless - without C&C there is no reason not to simply put CZ (if it ever shows up) where it belongs - with my '80 Greyhawk CS Folio.
I have to say, it'll be interesting to see what format CZ will take if it does ever hit shelves. C&C would have been an easy conversion to older editions of D&D, but LA would be a nightmare, and I don't think a core d20 version would scale well with the original.
Either way, my Yggsburgh book will be useless - without C&C there is no reason not to simply put CZ (if it ever shows up) where it belongs - with my '80 Greyhawk CS Folio.
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