The False Dichotomy of "Fluff" and "Crunch"

[Wisdom Penalty]

I won't requote you here, Henry, but I pretty much agree with everything you've said in reply to my earlier post. I'm not sure we ever disagreed - I just think I wasn't explicit enough in my post. I agree that "bad fluff" is as easy as "bad crunch" - though the sheer volume of crunch within the marketplace tends to ensure there's more "bad crunch" than "bad fluff".

*cough* The Valus *cough*

I thank you for that, friend. But if you follow that link, you'll still see a page filled with numbers. I did grab a copy (based on the sample text). So let's hope the "numbers" are there merely to cater to the current tastes of the d20 marketplace. For my sake.

You know, you had me noding my head (mostly) untill you got here. I would like to point out that what's evocative and imaginative differs from person to person. Thus, game fluff that is evocotive and imaginative to a gamer because it reminds him of Tolkien, has no hope of lighting my imagination on fire. (I hate Tolkien's writting, thus anything that trys to emulated him just sucks to me.)

And I'd like to point out that I never said what's "evocative and imaginative" was the same for everyone. So I agree with you - though I do love Tolkien.

W.P.

 

[fanboy2000]

Well, I didn't say I was always right.

And I'd like to point out that I never said what's "evocative and imaginative" was the same for everyone.

True, you didn't say that. But I thought you implied that what "kids these days" like isn't evocotive or imaginative.

though I do love Tolkin

Well, no one is perfect.

 

[S'mon]

(Thus, if all you care about is running a good home campaign, then I agree with S'mon and Wisdom Penalty - coming up with good rules-material is easier than coming up with good descriptions and inspirational material.)

That's basically my position - there are exceptions; eg my fellow GM Stalkingblue has worked hard to rework & redo the Crunch in the Midnight campaign she runs, that I play in. Midnight is a published campaign setting with fantastic 'mood & feel' fluff and a lot of _execrable_ crunch (both hard-crunch like Racial mods & prestige classes, and softer stuff like population demographics) - it's clearly written by designers like wil upchurch at the far end of the scale from the WotC guys; guys who like Fluff and do it well, but have no idea how to create appropriate Crunch even for the specific campaign setting they're after. I believe the crunch Stalkingblue has created for her Midnight game (with help from me in some cases) is simply _better_ crunch for pretty well _any_ Midnight campaign; better because she's just a much better cruncher than the Midnight-designer guys are.

 

[dead]

Fluff 'n' Crunch is a breakfast cereal right?

If it's not, then Fluff/Crunch is a vile binary opposite. A myth created be simple humankind to better explain the world. In reality, however, the world is never so simple. Things can be very complex and interweaving.

Fluff can be Crunch and Crunch can be Fluff sometimes.

 

[Vaxalon]

Fluff can be Crunch and Crunch can be Fluff sometimes.

Either you don't understand the terms, or you're insane.

Provide an example of this radical concept.

 

[3catcircus]

Either you don't understand the terms, or you're insane.

Provide an example of this radical concept.

See my post for an example of this (specifically the sentences regarding a game called Twilight:2000).

 

[Umbran]

I don't think it is a false dichotomy. I think the terms are broad generalizations, and are as useful and meaningful as any other such. However, humans are widely known for their misuse of broad generalizations.

 

[WizarDru]

I thank you for that, friend. But if you follow that link, you'll still see a page filled with numbers. I did grab a copy (based on the sample text). So let's hope the "numbers" are there merely to cater to the current tastes of the d20 marketplace. For my sake.

Well, they highlight material in the book for those who want to know that there is some crunch, but there's far more fluff than crunch, and most of the crunch is there to serve the fluff. The clerical magic system of Ascendancy and Suppression, for example, has a dramatic influence on the world, and the social structure of the various religions reflects that reality. The Valus' very unique take on Paladins, too, is an example of this.

There is but a single prestige class in the Valus sourcebook (the covenguard) , and I think you'll agree, from this excerpt, that it's more than a little flavorful:

I had been in the Order but seven weeks when they told me Brother Cadfan of Farthis had been disemboweled and left pinned above the gates of Dun Tullow. The townsfolk, doubtless, were astir with gossip the following morning. Each barkeep and every harlot must have ventured a guess as to which noble commissioned the murder. Cadfan, they must have said, was a quiet, old knight – who would wish him dead? And why would they have it done in such a horrible manner? Cadfan was quiet, and old, but he was no knight. And, even in my inexperience, I immediately knew that no scheming noble had commissioned the killing. The deed was done by the Marchioness Agras-Ardat herself, former ruler of the Rith’rin’yir demi-plane. She wished to establish a new domain here upon our world, and Brother Cadfan meant to stop her. He had nearly succeeded.

The leaders of our Order are wise. They did not send our finest wizards to combat Agras-Ardat. They did not send our deadliest assassins, though surely we have many such folk within our ranks. They did not send our greatest warriors, nor did they send our most experienced huntsmen.

No – our leaders sent Cadfan’s friends to do what must be done. And they sent me. For Cadfan was my Brother in the Order and my brother in birth. If you mean to kill a demon, you must hate like one.

Later, I staked the Marchioness’ head on the same gates my brother had been impaled upon. I did this in full view of the townsfolk, ‘lest they waste their breath with rumors and nonsense. I and my fellows did this deed not for glory, nor fame, nor even revenge. We did this because Agras-Ardat was where she did not belong. Our home is our temple, and our temple the world.

We do not suffer intruders.

- Brother Enan of Farthis, Covenguard

I'll be interested to hear your review, when you get it.

 

[Desdichado]

I don't think it is a false dichotomy. I think the terms are broad generalizations, and are as useful and meaningful as any other such. However, humans are widely known for their misuse of broad generalizations.

I think you hit the nail on the head squarely here, Umbran. The presence of some material that's difficult to classify doesn't make fluff vs crunch into a false dichotomy.

Where perhaps the dichotomy breaks down is where it's pressed into service in areas where it doesn't belong; like trying to predict sales as a proportional relationship between content of crunch vs fluff.

A good product, crunch or fluff, generally stands on it's own, IMO. Good fluff can sell as well as good crunch, if it really is good. Crunch is so prevalent these days in this market that it's hard to imagine that there's really a strong demand for pure crunch these days. I know my demand for it has shrunk to virtually nil. And even the best crunch usually has some fluff with it; crunch without context is often difficult to get excited about anyway.

 

[Nightfall]

PlHB was decent, but it drops to mediocre when compared to the shoes it tried to fill. Some portions are good and I'll use, other portions seriously dropped the ball.

Which is probably why you'd enjoy Beyond Countless Doorways Shem. You'd feel right at home.