The Far Realm and Evil

[BronzeGolem]

Shemeska,

I understand that idea of the Far Realm as the easiest way to attach it to the Great Wheel cosmology, but my intention in asking for advice was that that version of the Far Realm can't fly with the critical mods I've made for my homebrew.

Basically, the problem is that there can't BE a being that is divorced from good and evil (law and chaos are much less important modifiers in my world). Good and evil define the fundamental directions of the universe; everything one does is good or evil, and character can be defined by action. Beings of the Far Realm could be extremely alien, but ultimately their actions are defineable as good or evil. Given their apathy and/or desire to enslave everything they meet, I would generally define them as evil!

But I want evil outsiders and undead to be the "face" of evil in my game, so I was beflummoxed by the notion of the Far Realm as being, "Oh, you think devils are scary, wait till you see THIS!" If that were the case, I might as well play "Cthulu D&D," and I don't want to do that. So I'm trying to rectify denizens of the Far Realm as objectively evil in their actions (even if they themselves don't reckon themselves evil), while still making more traditional, willful, screaming-abyss-and-fires-of-hell "evil" to be the primary opponents of the characters' efforts.

I've even tried to think of a way to make the Far Realm beholden to the evil gods, but that didn't seem to work. So far, amethal has done the most with my idea of Far Realm as "cosmic dump," but I'd still be interested in other alternative theories.

C

My personal take on the Far Realm (I call it the Void Beyond) is that it exists beyond alignment considerations and the normal structures of the Outer and Inner Planes, but whenever a denizen of the Void Beyond enters the normal planar structure (The Inner and Outer Planes, Prime Material), the interaction between their normal environs and where they are located gives them what I call an 'alignment imposition'-which is a representation of their actions and nature. As a result, they can be detected as evil, banished, so on.

It also isn't particularly easy to reach as I've described it.

 

[klofft]

So... I'm reading the Lords of Madness and I'm getting a kick out of it. I like the Lovecraftian horror elements and overall it's a better read than I expected.

However, I'm confused about the cosmological changes. I thought that, officially, the Far Realm was NOT a part of the core cosmology. Yet this book seems to suggest otherwise, as does a timeline kicking around the forum here somewhere.

In my homebrew, I'm basically using the core Greyhawk cosmology, slightly tweaked. I have an overgod who is behind the scenes, completely unknown to all but the gods themselves. The gods are supremely powerful, but are also a bit like "super-angels." In this way, I'm borrowing from Tolkien. As far as the material plane knows, Pelor and Nerull function very broadly as "God" and "the devil," with all the other gods basically taking up sides (the overgod respects the free will of the gods, just as it does of all intelligent beings).

Anyway, all of that is somewhat secondary. I don't have a problem with incorporating the Far Realm into all this. My original idea for it was NOT that it was a cosmic predecessor to the other planes (it really grates on me as a professional theologian to imagine the gods only having power because people worship them - its also internally inconsistent in the default setting itself). Rather, the Far Realm was basically a hidden, cosmic "magic dump." All magic manipulates reality, which implies that there is an "objective" reality being manipulated. I'm positing (very loosely, I'll admit) that these magical changes to reality create "metaphysical garbage" that is the Far Realm.

OK. Even all THAT hasn't reached my point (sorry!). If the beings that exist in the Far Realm are "elder evils," how do I make that jive with the notion of "evil" gods in the "regular" realms? Are they two different "flavors" of evil? Is one beholden to the other? I briefly toyed with the idea that Nerull (as my big cosmic evil force) was also ruler over the Far Realm, but that really just makes the Far Realm another evil outer plane. But my cosmology can't permit that the beings of the Far Realm are actually more powerful than the gods, and it seems to be a too-easy abstraction to say that the beings of the Far Realm are simply amoral (my campaign thrives on the good vs. evil conflict). But having two "evils" seems clunky.

If anyone can interpret this, any ideas about how to solve my metaphysical conundrum?

C

 

[BlackMoria]

I am not all that familiar with the Far Realm but if it represents the Elder Evils, there is a simple way to reconcile the two evils.

In literature, the elder evils are protrayed as unknownable, beyond understanding and completely apathetic. Usually, they don't want worship nor do they need it.

Now, if you were a greedy amoral person, who would you worship? Gods which would hear your prayers, perhaps grant you a boon now or then - gods which at least you can understand and relate to. Or a god which cares not that you exist at all and totally ignores you, regardless of your supplications and sacrifices - gods beyond all understanding.

So, the familiar evil gods have come about as entities that, at least, will listen to prayers and may possibly respond to their prayers. The elder evil gods care not one whit about humanity - you are microrobes to them.

In short, one evil takes interest in the material plane and worshippers. The other evil doesn't care in any fashion. They are so alien to be beyond understanding.

 

[Canaan]

I have a couple of ideas that might help. Treat them as mutually exclusive ideas:

1. Far Realm as Nightmare Plane. Make the Far Realm co-existent and co-terminus with the Material Plane as a reflection of reality warped by nightmares that have become sentient. The "Gods" of the Far Realm are figments of nightmare given form. Fear or belief give them power (unlike the real gods).

2. Far Realm as Primeval Abyss. In the Fiendish Codex I, ancient demons are described, who pre-date the Tanari. Among these entities are Pale Night, or simply "Night" from Milton's Paradise Lost, consort to Demogorgon, the rulers of the Abyss. I also noted that Dagon--a Cthulu God--is in the Fiendish Codex I, as a denizen of the Abyss. You could tweak the cosmology of the planes, making these ancient demons and Dagon be the ancient rulers of the Abyss who have formed their own plane of madness an insanity. Perhaps they desire to take over all reality with their brand of insane evil so that at epic levels the overgod gets involved. They could be on par with the overgod. That takes Nerull out of the equation.

 

[amethal]

If I understand you correctly, the Far Realm grew out of the standard cosmology, and presumably fits something like a tyre around the wheel?

That's an interesting idea.

I don't really have the vocabulary to explain what I mean properly, so bear with me.

I'm going to assume the Overgod "created" the wheel and the gods.

In the beginning, there was the Overgod and a random mass of musical notes which was currently only producing static. The Overgod extracted the "best" notes and used his Overgod powers to structure them into a symphony - the standard cosmology.

The symphony is surrounded by static, but it doesn't matter because only the Overgod can even perceive the static.

Eventually, however, the border between the static and the music gets a bit blurred. This is because energy sometimes leaks from the symphony into the static - possibly this is the original energy used by the Overgod in the beginning, or maybe a side effect of the magic being used by gods and mortals on a daily basis.

This energy forms some of the static into patterns. However, none of these patterns can match the majesty of the Overgod's original symphony, because the "best" notes were all incorporated into the symphony in the beginning, leaving the dregs behind.

These patterns become the insane discord known as the Far Realms. It is impossible to move from the symphony to the static - but it is possible (although often very difficult) to move from the symphony to the discord.

The deeper into the discord a creature lives, the more alien it is to creatures of the symphony.

The creatures of the discord are insane variations on the inhabitants of the symphony, and some approach the gods in power. There is no alignment in the discord, but if a discord creature somehow arrives in the symphony then it is "shoehorned" into the most appropriate alignment (usually chaotic evil).

To the creatures of the discord, the symphony is a strange and frightening place which seems every bit as "blasphemous" (to use a common Lovecraft word) as its home in the discord would seem to creatures of the symphony. The more benign entities are simply indifferent; the rest embark on an orgy of destruction in an attempt to eradicate the "wrongness".

Cthulhu isn't more powerful than Nerull. However Cthulhu's total lack of understanding of, let alone regard for the, great wheel, and his apparent inability to appreciate that his actions have consequences (whether for himself or for others) makes him unbelievably dangerous to interact with.

Also, the concept of gods working together as a pantheon, and imposing checks and balances on each other, does not exist in the discord.

 

[klofft]

Hey, amethal, that's pretty good! That was pretty helpful. I like the musical analogy, but I most like the way that the amorality fits into the good-evil paradigm. I also appreciate that Nerull can remain "the big bad."

 

[Vorput]

That was pretty cool amethal.

 

[Shemeska]

The best way to look at the Far Realm is as an entirely seperate multiverse, with the occasional bleed over between it and the Great Wheel through the random fluctuations of probability swirling through the Ethereal Deep. Two discrete little soap bubbles of defined and solidified reality suspended in the froth atop an ocean of possibility.

The Far Realm isn't "Evil", divest yourself of that notion. The Far Realm isn't Chaos, toss that idea out the window as well. What the Far Realm is however, is incomprehensible to the inhabitants of the Great Wheel. As a seperate, alien multiverse, the Far Realm operates by its own tenets, its own rules, its own strictures and definitions of what reality is. The concepts of Law/Chaos/Good/Evil etc don't make sense in the context of the entities of the Far Realm.

The Slaadi are Xaos, the Baernaloths/Yugoloths are Evil, the Obyriths/Tanar'ri are the mixture of the two (or corruption of one by the other). The beings of the Far Realm aren't either of these. If alignment even exists as an abstract concept there, they might have 2 alignments, or five, or twelve hundred, or 3.14. The place just operates on laws and rules entirely divorced and antithetical to those of the Great Wheel. Any attempts to label them by the ethics and moralities of the Wheel is artificial at best.

We might judge some entities from the Far Realm as evil, but they're simply alien, operating by their own rules and notions of reality. The entities of the Great Wheel are probably just as hideous and bizarre to those of the Far Realm as they are the other way around (and there's even one godlike entity of the Far Realm who seems to primarily work to -prevent- contact between the Great Wheel and the Far Realm).

 

[klofft]

Shemeska,

I understand that idea of the Far Realm as the easiest way to attach it to the Great Wheel cosmology, but my intention in asking for advice was that that version of the Far Realm can't fly with the critical mods I've made for my homebrew.

Basically, the problem is that there can't BE a being that is divorced from good and evil (law and chaos are much less important modifiers in my world). Good and evil define the fundamental directions of the universe; everything one does is good or evil, and character can be defined by action. Beings of the Far Realm could be extremely alien, but ultimately their actions are defineable as good or evil. Given their apathy and/or desire to enslave everything they meet, I would generally define them as evil!

But I want evil outsiders and undead to be the "face" of evil in my game, so I was beflummoxed by the notion of the Far Realm as being, "Oh, you think devils are scary, wait till you see THIS!" If that were the case, I might as well play "Cthulu D&D," and I don't want to do that. So I'm trying to rectify denizens of the Far Realm as objectively evil in their actions (even if they themselves don't reckon themselves evil), while still making more traditional, willful, screaming-abyss-and-fires-of-hell "evil" to be the primary opponents of the characters' efforts.

I've even tried to think of a way to make the Far Realm beholden to the evil gods, but that didn't seem to work. So far, amethal has done the most with my idea of Far Realm as "cosmic dump," but I'd still be interested in other alternative theories.

C

 

[Shemeska]

Shemeska,

This is what I get for skimming and posting quickly while being at work.

I'll post something else later that's more relevant with the context of your setup when I have a chance.