The first round of an improved grab

[Kershek]

Let's say a huge red dragon does a full attack on a party member. His primary attack is his bite and he has 5 secondary attacks (claws, wings, and tail slap). Here are two questions:

1. Does he have to attack in order, with his primary attack first and then his secondary attacks?

2. If he attacks with his bite first and initiates an improved grab and is successful, is he done for the round? Or can he still attack with his 5 other attacks on that same round? If he can still attack, is the party member considered grappled against the remaining attacks?

Please site rules if possible.

 

[Thanee]

Well, once you are in a grapple, you can only use a single natural attack (I suppose the grapple-initiating bite attack would count as that), so no extra attacks, once grapple has been initiated. Starting with the next round, the dragon would then go with its BAB to determine number and effectiveness of attacks in grapple (standard grapple rules apply).

Only exception is the Rake attack (see Rake in MM 3.5, which also states the rule for natural weapons - please don't ask me, why it is stated THERE ).

Other than that, I don't think there is a fixed order in which attacks have to be done, so the dragon could save the bite for last. That's how I would do it.

There is a rule about BAB, that you have to go from highest to lowest, however, when making a full attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vrecknidj]

The improved grab allows for a grapple as a free action, so that doesn't affect the dragon's ability to use the rest of his attacks (SRD--TypeSubtypesAbilities document). But, see the text . . . (highlights are mine).

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The dragon of course can opt not to start the grapple if he wants and if the dragon does he can either take a -20 to his grapple check and act as normal (i.e. not in a grapple), continuing his attacks on other targets as he wishes or the dragon can continue with his natural attacks on the target he is grappled with instead.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works out, but I'd have to double check my MM.

 

[Kershek]

So does that mean that he couldn't use the rest of his attacks on the grappled opponent because it says "can use its remaining attacks against other opponents" ?

 

[Thanee]

I think so, yes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

A related Rake question: Dire Lion charges with pounce... can he use the Improved Grab with the bite while doing all 5 attacks? I guess he'll get no additional Rake attacks while grappling this round though, right?

 

[Brekki]

When he's in the grapple, he can't use his secondary attacks, only attack more often with his primary attacks, using bab to figure out how many attacks. .... atleast thats what the grappling rules in phb seem to say.

 

[Thanee]

@Darklone: Pounce specifically includes Rake attacks.

Normally, you cannot use Rake right after initiating a grapple. See above.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

@Darklone: Pounce specifically includes Rake attacks.

Normally, you cannot use Rake right after initiating a grapple. See above.

You can't use Rake right after initiating a grapple? Sounds logical, but where was this quoted above?