The first round of combat [Ready actions]

[Ziggy]

The DM is within his rights to give say a +4 situational modifier to initiative.

That won't do. With the randomness of the D20, the pumped fighter (with crappy initiative and a +4 bonus) will be still standing there as a statue at least 30-40% of those encounters.

.Ziggy

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's important for the DM to think carefully about when combats begin or end. 'Readying' actions when out of combat should never be allowed - it leads to players /constantly/ 'readying' for things they think /might/ happen, which gets very anoying for all involved.

In the example you gave, you'd want to set it up so that the baddies achieve surprise, initially, and set thier Readies, but the leader negotiates, first. The Ready could be something like "If one of them heros tries and interrupt the boss.." The whole scene is then conducted 'in combat,' until you say otherwise. This would work for a short, tense negotiation.

In situations where players expect combat, but it isn't joined yet - as, for instance, when about to open a door, don't allow readies or delays, until the door is opened (or whatever) and the enemies revealed.

....

Someone mentioned the party delaying to the lowest initiative, then acting in whatever order suited them. Though it's tough to resist the temptation of going ASAP, it can be helpful. One of my group's most successful combats was against a room full of hobgoblins. We opened the door on them - no surprise involved, we knew they were there and they knew we were comming - and there were some unreasonable demands on our side and threats on thiers before the battle was joined and initiatives were rolled. Our Sorceress rolled a 7 and we all delayed, while the hobgoblins tossed javelins at the oen or two characters in the doorway, then we moved in, as a group, melee-types engaging the hobgoblins and covering the casters and archers in the back.

 

[0-hr]

Another easy solution would be to make all actions in the first round of combat be simultaneous for people who aren't surprised.

"If both sides in a conflict are well aware of imminent combat, then no-one is flatfooted when the combat actually starts. Furthermore, all actions during the first round are considered to be simultaneous. Though turns should be resolved in the order of initiative, all combatants should be allowed to take their actions according to conditions at the start of the round."

Just another random thought.

 

[Ziggy]

Tony Vargas

I guess much of the problem stems from when you define that combat starts. There are no strict rules for that, and perhaps your suggestion of running negotiation in combat is the best one. But you'll end up with loads of people doing delay actions, and probably ending with a situation pretty similar to what I suggested (a buch of people with ready actions, the rest with delay).

And I trust my players to behave responsible, and I don't expect them to walk around with ready actions all the time. You might have some "slippage" with ready actions are used in other situations as well, but I'm not really sure that this is a blessing or a curse. I'll have to thing a bit more abut it I guess.

......

And our party also uses delay a lot (together with ready), I'm pretty sure that is one of the reasons I gripe so much about it It's really amazing how big the difference is between a coordinated party using delay and ready, and a party that just barges in.

Ki Ryn:

That is a pretty big change to the system, I don't thing I'm ready for that.

.Ziggy

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's been more or less covered already, so here are my votes:

1> If you're aware of the other side and are expecting combat, you're not flatfooted no matter how badly you roll for Initiative.
2> Since you knew combat was going to be likely and that the bad guys were preparing readied actions, everyone should have rolled initiative already. Now yes, you might see a lot of people delaying until the fighting starts (so everyone goes at the same initiative), so as DM you might want to say that starting with the second round of combat everyone goes back to the normal initiative order. That way, all the reflexive "if the bad guy attacks I'll fire my bow" actions happen at the same time, but then it devolves into the usual fray.
Or, be more specific about what kind of Delay you can declare. Don't let the PCs get away with something as generic as "if they do anything I attack". Force them to make it absolute ("If the bodyguard to the left casts a spell I'll shoot him with my bow") so that there's a good chance it won't be triggered. Specific target, specific trigger action, specific counteraction.

 

[Zaruthustran]

It's been more or less covered already, so here are my votes:

1> If you're aware of the other side and are expecting combat, you're not flatfooted no matter how badly you roll for Initiative.
2> Since you knew combat was going to be likely and that the bad guys were preparing readied actions, everyone should have rolled initiative already. Now yes, you might see a lot of people delaying until the fighting starts (so everyone goes at the same initiative), so as DM you might want to say that starting with the second round of combat everyone goes back to the normal initiative order. That way, all the reflexive "if the bad guy attacks I'll fire my bow" actions happen at the same time, but then it devolves into the usual fray.
Or, be more specific about what kind of Delay you can declare. Don't let the PCs get away with something as generic as "if they do anything I attack". Force them to make it absolute ("If the bodyguard to the left casts a spell I'll shoot him with my bow") so that there's a good chance it won't be triggered. Specific target, specific trigger action, specific counteraction.

To your 1, that's not really viable or even realistic. Even if we're standing toe to toe, both hands inching toward our sword hilts during a tense negotiation, *somebody* is going to get the drop on the other person. And until your guard is up and you're in your fighting stance, you're flat-footed. That's what flat-footed *is*.

Ever play Hands? It's that game where I hold my hands palm up, and you place your hands palm down over mine, and I try to slap the tops of your hands and you try to jerk your hands away before I can slap them. Well, you know my attack is coming. But it still comes down to a matter of Initiative.

The problem with your point #2 is that combat takes forever, as everyone stipulates precise "ready" actions and people argue over whether the wording was precise enough. Then once combat actually starts, everyone has to remember what the readied actions were and whether what actually happens is close enough to their readied action definitions to trigger a response. Ugh. Not fun.

Anyway, here's what the thread originator said:

Lately I've become quite dissatisfied with the way 3E handles the first round of combat. While the system works well whenever there is an element of surprise (the surprise round is an excellent idea), it don't handle encounters where all involved expect combat very well.

The most annoying thing is the "blanket of confusion" that hits the battlefield when an encounter goes into combat rounds. Everybody freezes (and most become flatfooted) until their initiative, something that is quite unlike real life.

Actually, the flat-footed thing is exactly what happens in real life. Think back to real world combat experience if you have it (even if it's just fights in high school), otherwise look at combat accounts or even movies. Until the fight starts, the fight hasn't started.

Look at the end of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. Those three guys knew a fight was coming, but Blondie was quicker on the draw. In D&D terms, that'd be:
DM: You three square off, all slowly reaching for your guns.
Angel Eyes: I pull my gun and fire!
DM: Hang on there, that means that combat's starting. Everyone roll initiative. [combat starts]
Angel Eyes: 17!
Blondie: 18! I draw and fire!
DM: Okay, you hit. Angel Eyes, you're dead.

You could run that encounter another way, and say that combat starts when the three square off. Then they all delay, all the way until they can't delay any more. At that point, someone has to act--in this case Angel Eyes drawing his gun. Too bad Blondie has a higher initiative bonus and gets to go first.
From the SRD:
"If two or more delaying combatants both want to act on the same initiative count, the one with the highest bonus gets to go first."

Or you could run it a third way: Blondie gets the initiative, and Readies an action to shoot Angel Eyes if Angel Eyes draws his gun. When Angel Eyes' turn comes up and he draws, Blondie draws and fires (he has Quickdraw). Blam.

Here's the situation from the thread originator:

Consider the example where an Evil Bad Guy (EBG) confronts the PCs for a parley. He is a frail, but well-prepared gentleman, and has snipers on the roof with bows trained on the PCs, some bodyguards for close protection, and a wizard on hand with standing orders to teleport him away if anything violent occurs. But negotiations break down, and hell breaks loose as the PCs charge the EBG.

If the encounter already is into combat rounds the setup works perfectly (for the EBG), as the snipers, bodyguards and the wizard have readied actions, and the PCs are filled with arrows while the EBG teleports away.

But if we do this as the start of combat, the system works quite differently. Both sides definitely expect trouble, thus nobody is surprised. Then everybody roll initiative, and waits for their turn. If the EBG and his minions win initiative they ready actions, and everything works as above.

But if the PCs win initiative, they charge the EBG, and probably take him out while the snipers, bodyguards and wizard scratch their head wondering what happened

So if the PCs are quick they're able to charge before the guards can react. What's the problem with that? It's a fair roll. And if a PC is unusually fast (12+ Dex) or has a knack for getting the drop on people in a fight (Improved Initiative), well, that's why he's a hero.

Again I'll refer to the Hands game. I know you're about to slap my hands. I'm ready for it. The instant I see your hands so much as twitch, I'm planning on yanking my hands away. Yet you smack my hands. How can this be? Well, hey, you're just faster--in D&D terms, you won the initiative roll. Tough luck for me.

If you EBG wants the parley to go his way, he should hire dextrous archers with Improved Initiative. He should stand behind his bodyguards, so no one can charge him (charges must be in a straight line). He should stand a good distance away--farther than a single Move can cover. He should get his mage to use his protective spells, instead of just standing there waiting for something to happen.

If the EBG is dumb enough to hire slow guards and leave himself open to a charge, he deserves what he gets.

-z

PS: If you want, you could run the encounter as being "in combat" at the start of the parley. Then have all your guards do Ready actions to shoot the party if they attack the EBG's group. But then, your PCs could Ready actions to attack the EBG if negotiations fail. And it's a mess.

So, much better to just rely on good ol' Initiative.

 

[smetzger]

That won't do. With the randomness of the D20, the pumped fighter (with crappy initiative and a +4 bonus) will be still standing there as a statue at least 30-40% of those encounters.

.Ziggy

Well, if your so sluggish that a 20% boost in your initiative doesn't help you then that is your fault. Fighters have feats to burn and if they don't want to get cought flat footed they should take Improved Init.

 

[Oracular Vision]

You can only delay 10 counts, not the whole round.

I would leave the surprise round alone, if anyone is in it, let them act normally and everything works well enough. I will test out the "there is no surprise so why can't I ready an action" idea. I actually have had a Living Greyhawk Triad member tell me that the surprise round allowed full-round actions, but he is gone now. I think the surprise round system works well, unless no one is surprised, then it breaks down.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Here's my suggestion. I tried allowing actions to be readied before combat and it reduced initiative to a flurry of readies. It also didn't make a lot of sense in a situation like when a door is kicked open. If both sides knew that the other was there, why should either of them necessarily put their plan into action more quickly when the situation changes (the door is opened and they can interact).

This is what I do now: If a situation changes that allows two groups which previously could not interact to interact, I roll new initiative. (As suggested in the DMG for when situations change drastically as in the example of the invisible drow suddenly revealed by an invisibility purge). So the fighter kicks in the door and then everyone reacts to what they see--including the fighter. Everyone rolls initiative and the fighter is not denied part of his action by booting the door. After all, combat didn't start until the door opened.

In a situation like your parley, I think there are two good options.
1. Work the whole situation out in initiative order. The bad guy teleports in and says "let's negotiate." Roll initiative. Player 1. What do you do? I say "Don't even think about treachery. Surrender and your life will be spared." Do I have enough time to ready an attack if any of my party is attacked? Sure. It's the bad guy's initiative. He continues to speak, "You have no idea who you're dealing with. I am not some trifling apprentice necromancer to be so easily cowed." (EBG secretly readies a dimension door spell if any party members draw weapons or begin casting spells). . . .

This would work for short negotiations and really builds tension but might not work for longer negotiations.

2. Decide to use the optional rule that, despite the fact that nobody is really "surprised," combat will begin with a surprise round. Because he's not dumb, EBG insists that the PCs' parlay party keep their weapons in their sheathes as they approach him. Since it's a surprise round, no PC will be able to both draw a weapon and attack EBG unless they have quickdraw. This is probably why historically, people kept their weapons in their sheathes during negotiations. (And quite possibly also why King Arthur's legendary battle with Mordred started when a member of the parlay party drew his sword to kill the snake that was about to bite him. Everyone else knew that, now that his sword was drawn, if he beat them in initiative there would be nothing they could do to stop him from killing their leader.)

Of course, the real question is this: If EBG wants bodyguards to protect him, why doesn't he have an invisible Shield Guardian or Devoted Defender standing next to him. . . .

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can only delay 10 counts, not the whole round.

Not so - read it again.

You can Delay until "count = -10 (modified by Dex modifier)", which is completely different.

Since someone with a Dexterity of 3 and an initiative roll of 1 ends up with an initiative count of only -3, the whole party can still Delay until -3 and act together - even the elven rogue who rolled a 29 for initiative.

-Hyp.